Discussion:
How did Dumbledore know?
(too old to reply)
LouAnn
2005-08-09 10:32:20 UTC
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How did Dumbledore know about Draco's mission to kill him? He said he had
known for long time. All I can figure is Snape had to have told Dumbledore.
Yet Dumbledore didn't know about the cabinet only that Draco was using the
Room of Requirement. It seems Dumbledore only knows as much as Snape does.
But then Dumbledore didn't know about the Unbreakable Vow. Then with all the
half truths and lies Snape told at Spinner's End and JKR saying that Snape
wasn't just a double agent, but triple, quadruple agent. The more I think
about this on my second read of the HBP, the more I believe that Snape is
playing bothsides of the fence for his own gain. But why?


LouAnn
HP Cult Leader
Chr
2005-08-09 11:11:47 UTC
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Post by LouAnn
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How did Dumbledore know about Draco's mission to kill him? He said he had
known for long time. All I can figure is Snape had to have told Dumbledore.
Yet Dumbledore didn't know about the cabinet only that Draco was using the
Room of Requirement. It seems Dumbledore only knows as much as Snape does.
But then Dumbledore didn't know about the Unbreakable Vow. Then with all the
half truths and lies Snape told at Spinner's End and JKR saying that Snape
wasn't just a double agent, but triple, quadruple agent. The more I think
about this on my second read of the HBP, the more I believe that Snape is
playing bothsides of the fence for his own gain. But why?
With Dumbledore out of the running, and Voldemort and Harry killing off each
other, the way is paved for Snape and his own twisted ambitions?
Illyria Fhtagn
2005-08-09 12:32:24 UTC
Permalink
It's never spelled out what Draco's task was, making both that and the
nature of the unbreakable vow that Snape swore total guesswork on our
part. I believe Snape is only playing one side of the fence, under
orders.
Paul Lints
2005-08-09 15:50:24 UTC
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Post by Illyria Fhtagn
It's never spelled out what Draco's task was, making both that and the
nature of the unbreakable vow that Snape swore total guesswork on our
part. I believe Snape is only playing one side of the fence, under
orders.
Quoted from the Astronomy Tower scene:
'I haven't got any options!' said Malfoy, and he was suddenly as white
as Dumbledore. 'I've got do to it [kill you, Dumbledore]! He'll kill
me! He'll kill my whole family!'

Draco says much the same to Moaning Myrtle when Harry overhears. Why do
people keep claiming we don't know for sure what Draco's task is?
--
Paul W. Lints Jr. UIN: 25030144
Valid email: pwlints@*DELETEME*csupomona.edu
drusilla
2005-08-09 17:36:40 UTC
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Post by Paul Lints
Post by Illyria Fhtagn
It's never spelled out what Draco's task was, making both that and the
nature of the unbreakable vow that Snape swore total guesswork on our
part. I believe Snape is only playing one side of the fence, under
orders.
'I haven't got any options!' said Malfoy, and he was suddenly as white
as Dumbledore. 'I've got do to it [kill you, Dumbledore]! He'll kill
me! He'll kill my whole family!'
Draco says much the same to Moaning Myrtle when Harry overhears. Why do
people keep claiming we don't know for sure what Draco's task is?
Because is not that he actually says: "My task was to kill you by the Dark
Lord' orders", although, that's something we can figure out during his last
converstion wit Dumbledore.

He confessed he sent the poisoned meal and the necklace. Draco obviously
sent them with intentions to kill DD, so, is very much like saying: "I tried
to murder you teh whole term", which Ithink he actually did say (sorry, I
don't remember)
Jim
2005-08-09 13:14:03 UTC
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Post by LouAnn
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How did Dumbledore know about Draco's mission to kill him?
He read it on the Internet.

Jim
Dinali
2005-08-09 13:45:17 UTC
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I think that Snape told Dumbledore about the Unbreakable vow and then
Dumbledore must have decided that it was wiser for Snape to kill him
than Draco. I mean Dumbledore didn't have much of a choice. Either
Snape must kill him or Snape must die. Dumbledore might have decided
that it was more important to the Order to have Snape as a spy. As for
Draco, Dumbledore clearly didn't want him to become a killer. So
therefore I think that Snape is still trustworthy.
Don Reeves
2005-08-10 00:36:04 UTC
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Post by Jim
Post by LouAnn
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How did Dumbledore know about Draco's mission to kill him?
He read it on the Internet.
Jim
Yep. Someone posted a spoiler a week early.
Don Reeves
Marco
2005-08-10 00:42:28 UTC
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Post by Don Reeves
Post by Jim
Post by LouAnn
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How did Dumbledore know about Draco's mission to kill him?
He read it on the Internet.
Jim
Yep. Someone posted a spoiler a week early.
Don Reeves
It seems obvious that Snape told him.

He's not dead, Jim.

M
T.M. Sommers
2005-08-25 10:28:23 UTC
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Post by Jim
Post by LouAnn
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How did Dumbledore know about Draco's mission to kill him?
He read it on the Internet.
He watched it on TV, the way George Burns used to watch what the
other characters were up to on the old Burns and Allen TV show.
(Burns used to go up to his study, turn on the TV, and watch the
show as it was happening, and then at an appropriate moment,
rejoin the others, never letting on that he had heard everthing
they said while he was away.)
--
Thomas M. Sommers -- ***@nj.net -- AB2SB
LadySri
2005-08-09 19:44:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by LouAnn
How did Dumbledore know about Draco's mission to kill him? He said he had
known for long time. All I can figure is Snape had to have told Dumbledore.
Yet Dumbledore didn't know about the cabinet only that Draco was using the
Room of Requirement. It seems Dumbledore only knows as much as Snape does.
But then Dumbledore didn't know about the Unbreakable Vow. Then with all the
half truths and lies Snape told at Spinner's End and JKR saying that Snape
wasn't just a double agent, but triple, quadruple agent. The more I think
about this on my second read of the HBP, the more I believe that Snape is
playing bothsides of the fence for his own gain. But why?
LouAnn
HP Cult Leader
It seems likely to me that Dumbledore DID know about the cabinet- which
is why he had OotP members crawling all over Hogwart's. However, no
protection is 100% against any plan- with teh Dark Mark over Hogwart's,
DD probably thougth his protection had gone awry...
Troels Forchhammer
2005-08-09 20:35:58 UTC
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In message
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Post by LadySri
Post by LouAnn
How did Dumbledore know about Draco's mission to kill him?
Presumably from Snape. Recall that Voldemort gave Draco the mission to
punish Lucius -- Voldemort /wanted/ Draco to fail, and wouldn't have
objected to Snape telling Dumbledore. Note also that Snape knew, and
had been in contact with Dumbledore, before he made the Unbreakable
Vow.
Post by LadySri
Post by LouAnn
He said he had known for long time. All I can figure is Snape
had to have told Dumbledore.
I dare say he might have learned from other sources at some point
during the year (Dumbledore has always known astoundingly much about
what goes on in the school).
Post by LadySri
Post by LouAnn
Yet Dumbledore didn't know about the cabinet only that Draco was
using the Room of Requirement.
Just as the Room of Requirement doesn't appear on the Marauder's Map,
and Draco disappears from the Map when he's in there.
Post by LadySri
Post by LouAnn
It seems Dumbledore only knows as much as Snape does. But then
Dumbledore didn't know about the Unbreakable Vow.
Precisely.
Post by LadySri
Post by LouAnn
Then with all the half truths and lies Snape told at Spinner's End
I don't recall any lies though he may not have told the entire truth at
some points -- it seems quite honest and straightforward to me.
Post by LadySri
Post by LouAnn
and JKR saying that Snape wasn't just a double agent, but triple,
quadruple agent.
No she did not. She was making a /joke/!

ES: Was Dumbledore planning to die?
JKR: [Pause.] Do you think that's going to be the big
theory?
MA & ES: Yes. It'll be a big theory.
JKR: [Pause.] Well, I don't want to shoot that one down. [A
little laughter.] I have to give people hope.
MA: It goes back to the question of whether Snape is a
double-double-double-triple-
JKR: [Laughs] Double-double-quadruple-to-the-power-of -
yeah.

This is what leads to the comment that 'obviously, there are lines of
speculation I don't want to shut down.'

Rowling is essentially saying that the idea that Dumbledore planned to
die is incorrect, but she doesn't want to shoot it down as long as
the discussions may be 'profitable'.
Post by LadySri
Post by LouAnn
The more I think about this on my second read of the HBP, the more
I believe that Snape is playing bothsides of the fence for his own
gain. But why?
That may indeed be the case. I could even see Snape as the one who
killed Nagini in order to allow Harry to kill Voldemort (after which
Snape would kill Harry and set himself up as the new Dark Lord).

Power! More power to abuse, more power to satisfy his sadism.
Post by LadySri
It seems likely to me that Dumbledore DID know about the cabinet-
which is why he had OotP members crawling all over Hogwart's.
It's quite obvious that he doesn't -- he asks Draco how he got the
Death Eaters into the castle and yet reveals that he knows that Draco
was behind the cursed necklace and the poisoned mead.

'But why? I don't think you will kill me, Draco. Killing
is not nearly as easy as the innocent believe . . . so tell
me, while we wait for your friends . . . how did you
smuggle them in here? It seems to have taken you a long
time to work out how to do it.'
Malfoy looked as though he was fighting down the urge to
shout, or to vomit. He gulped and took several deep
breaths, glaring at Dumbledore, his wand pointing directly
at the latter's heart. Then, as though he could not help
himself, he said, 'I had to mend that broken Vanishing
Cabinet that no one's used for years. The one Montague got
lost in last year.'
'Aaaah.'
Dumbledore's sigh was half a groan. He closed his eyes
for a moment.
That was clever . . . there is a pair, I take it?'
[Dumbledore and Draco, HBP-27 'The Lightning-Struck Tower']
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it
turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
- Anne Lamott
PFG
2005-08-10 05:50:27 UTC
Permalink
On 9 Aug 2005 20:35:58 GMT, Troels Forchhammer
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Post by LadySri
Post by LouAnn
It seems Dumbledore only knows as much as Snape does.
Correct.
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Post by LadySri
Post by LouAnn
But then
Dumbledore didn't know about the Unbreakable Vow.
Precisely.
And how do we know that?
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Post by LadySri
It seems likely to me that Dumbledore DID know about the cabinet-
which is why he had OotP members crawling all over Hogwart's.
It's quite obvious that he doesn't
That's correct. And Snape didn't know, either, because Draco would
not reveal him details of his plan.
--
Pawel
Troels Forchhammer
2005-08-10 19:49:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by PFG
On 9 Aug 2005 20:35:58 GMT, Troels Forchhammer
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Post by LouAnn
But then Dumbledore didn't know about the Unbreakable Vow.
Precisely.
And how do we know that?
I think it's been discussed earlier, but still:

A) Dumbledore rejects Draco's assertion that Snape had promised
Narcissa -- (anything).

'He hasn't been doing /your/ orders, he promised my
mother --'
'Of course that is what he would tell you, Draco, but --'
[Draco and Dumbledore, HBP-27 'The Lightning-Struck Tower']
I know that there are those who will claim that Dumbledore is
referring to the first part of Draco's assertion, but that doesn't
fit with the literary conventions for dialogue of this type.
¨ Dumbledore must be referring to the part he interrupts, the assertion
that Snape had promised Draco's mother --

B) Dumbledore does not know that persuading Draco to give up his
mission should prevent him (Dumbledore) from living on.

Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you
more completely than you can possibly imagine. What is
more, I can send members of the Order to your mother
tonight to hide her likewise.
[Dumbledore, HBP-27 'The Lightning-Struck Tower', Scholastic]
Dumbledore expects himself to be able to send members of the Order of
the Phoenix to Draco's mother if Draco would give up the task he had
been assigned by Lord Voldemort and 'come over to the right side'.

Both of these passages demonstrate that Dumbledore didn't know about
(or rather, since Harry told him about overhearing Snape and Draco at
Slughorn's party, he did not believe in the existence of) the Vow that
would indeed cause problems with respect to both of these statements.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the
shoulders of giants.
- Isaac Newton
Andy Platt
2005-08-10 20:14:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Post by PFG
On 9 Aug 2005 20:35:58 GMT, Troels Forchhammer
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Post by LouAnn
But then Dumbledore didn't know about the Unbreakable Vow.
Precisely.
And how do we know that?
A) Dumbledore rejects Draco's assertion that Snape had promised
Narcissa -- (anything).
'He hasn't been doing /your/ orders, he promised my
mother --'
'Of course that is what he would tell you, Draco, but --'
[Draco and Dumbledore, HBP-27 'The Lightning-Struck Tower']
I know that there are those who will claim that Dumbledore is
referring to the first part of Draco's assertion, but that doesn't
fit with the literary conventions for dialogue of this type.
š Dumbledore must be referring to the part he interrupts, the assertion
that Snape had promised Draco's mother --
Not true. He is interrupting in the middle of a quick statement. There is
just a comma.
Post by Troels Forchhammer
B) Dumbledore does not know that persuading Draco to give up his
mission should prevent him (Dumbledore) from living on.
Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you
more completely than you can possibly imagine. What is
more, I can send members of the Order to your mother
tonight to hide her likewise.
[Dumbledore, HBP-27 'The Lightning-Struck Tower', Scholastic]
Dumbledore expects himself to be able to send members of the Order of
the Phoenix to Draco's mother if Draco would give up the task he had
been assigned by Lord Voldemort and 'come over to the right side'.
Both of these passages demonstrate that Dumbledore didn't know about
(or rather, since Harry told him about overhearing Snape and Draco at
Slughorn's party, he did not believe in the existence of) the Vow that
would indeed cause problems with respect to both of these statements.
No, you are interpreting them that way - IMHO incorrectly. They do not
really give any evidence about his knowing or not knowing about the vow.

Andy.
--
I'm not really here, it's just your warped imagination
Paul Lints
2005-08-10 20:28:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Platt
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Post by PFG
On 9 Aug 2005 20:35:58 GMT, Troels Forchhammer
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Post by LouAnn
But then Dumbledore didn't know about the Unbreakable Vow.
Precisely.
And how do we know that?
A) Dumbledore rejects Draco's assertion that Snape had promised
Narcissa -- (anything).
'He hasn't been doing /your/ orders, he promised my
mother --'
'Of course that is what he would tell you, Draco, but --'
[Draco and Dumbledore, HBP-27 'The Lightning-Struck Tower']
I know that there are those who will claim that Dumbledore is
referring to the first part of Draco's assertion, but that doesn't
fit with the literary conventions for dialogue of this type.
¨ Dumbledore must be referring to the part he interrupts, the assertion
that Snape had promised Draco's mother --
Not true. He is interrupting in the middle of a quick statement. There is
just a comma.
Post by Troels Forchhammer
B) Dumbledore does not know that persuading Draco to give up his
mission should prevent him (Dumbledore) from living on.
Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you
more completely than you can possibly imagine. What is
more, I can send members of the Order to your mother
tonight to hide her likewise.
[Dumbledore, HBP-27 'The Lightning-Struck Tower', Scholastic]
Dumbledore expects himself to be able to send members of the Order of
the Phoenix to Draco's mother if Draco would give up the task he had
been assigned by Lord Voldemort and 'come over to the right side'.
Both of these passages demonstrate that Dumbledore didn't know about
(or rather, since Harry told him about overhearing Snape and Draco at
Slughorn's party, he did not believe in the existence of) the Vow that
would indeed cause problems with respect to both of these statements.
No, you are interpreting them that way - IMHO incorrectly. They do not
really give any evidence about his knowing or not knowing about the vow.
Except for him denying it's existence, of course. Such feeble
proof...how can people believe Dumbledore...
--
Paul W. Lints Jr. UIN: 25030144
Valid email: pwlints@*DELETEME*csupomona.edu
Tim Peters
2005-08-11 03:40:47 UTC
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[Troels Forchhammer, on why the reader knows D didn't know about
Snape's Unbreakable Vow]
Post by Andy Platt
Post by Troels Forchhammer
...
A) Dumbledore rejects Draco's assertion that Snape had promised
Narcissa -- (anything).
'He hasn't been doing /your/ orders, he promised my
mother --'
'Of course that is what he would tell you, Draco, but --'
[Draco and Dumbledore, HBP-27 'The Lightning-Struck Tower']
|>>
Post by Andy Platt
Post by Troels Forchhammer
I know that there are those who will claim that Dumbledore is
referring to the first part of Draco's assertion, but that doesn't
fit with the literary conventions for dialogue of this type.
š Dumbledore must be referring to the part he interrupts, the assertion
that Snape had promised Draco's mother --
[Andy Platt]
Post by Andy Platt
Not true. He is interrupting in the middle of a quick statement. There is
just a comma.
My kingdom for a comma ;-)

What Troels said is certainly the natural way to read written fictional
conversation. Here's the alternative:

"He hasn't been doing /your/ orders -- [unintelligible mumbling]"

"Of course that is what he would tell you, Draco, but --"

Don't you feel the strain in that? What could D be thinking there?

"Of course Snape would tell you he hasn't been doing my orders,
Draco, but --"

Why would D even imagine that Snape had told Draco "I'm not following D's
orders"? Does D imagine that Draco asked Snape "Snape, are you following
D's orders?" and that Snape then replied "No, Draco, I am not." Or does D
perhaps believe that Draco's beliefs all derive from what Snape tells him?
Doesn't make much sense. Given the way you want to read this, Draco is
making a statement about Snape (not necessarily about what Snape may or may
not have said, but about Snape's loyalties), and gives no clue whatsoever
about why he believes this of Snape. You cut him off too early for anyone
to guess why he believes it. Maybe it's because Lord Voldemort himself told
Draco -- there's no way to tell from "he hasn't been doing /your/ orders" on
its own.

The obvious way to read Draco's original statement is:

"He hasn't been doing /your/ orders, [and the reason I know this
is because someone told me that] he promised my mother --"

and at that point D's response makes perfect sense (including D's referring
to what Snape said, because Harry told D that Snape told Draco that he
[Snape] had made a promise to Draco's mother, so D knows more than he could
have deduced from what Draco said in isolation -- taking all of what Draco
said on its own, Draco could just as well have heard about the promise from
his mother, or from V, or ...). Cut Draco's sentence off before "he
promised my mother", and what D says in response is kinda bizarre.
Post by Andy Platt
Post by Troels Forchhammer
B) Dumbledore does not know that persuading Draco to give up his
mission should prevent him (Dumbledore) from living on.
Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you
more completely than you can possibly imagine. What is
more, I can send members of the Order to your mother
tonight to hide her likewise.
[Dumbledore, HBP-27 'The Lightning-Struck Tower', Scholastic]
Dumbledore expects himself to be able to send members of the Order of
the Phoenix to Draco's mother if Draco would give up the task he had
been assigned by Lord Voldemort and 'come over to the right side'.
Both of these passages demonstrate that Dumbledore didn't know about
(or rather, since Harry told him about overhearing Snape and Draco at
Slughorn's party, he did not believe in the existence of) the Vow that
would indeed cause problems with respect to both of these statements.
No, you are interpreting them that way - IMHO incorrectly. They do not
really give any evidence about his knowing or not knowing about the vow.
I think the first one is very strong, but agree the second one is weaker.
For example, D knew Harry was listening to all this, so even if D knew he
was about to die, he would trust Harry to fulfill his promise; or, another
way, since D says "tonight", it's enough if D thinks he's going to stay
alive just long enough to send a message to the Order telling them the plan.
OTOH, there's no way to read the second one as evidence that D thinks he
_is_ about to die -- not even by replacing a comma with a full stop ;-)
Andy Platt
2005-08-10 11:59:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by LouAnn
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But then Dumbledore didn't know about the Unbreakable Vow. Then with all the
Please state the location in HBP where it states this.

It's speculation so it should be labelled as such. Personally I believe that
Dumbledore did know about the unbreakable vow and I think that his earlier
conversation with Snape - as overheard by Hagrid - was telling him he had to
stick with that (e.g. sacrificing Dumbledore over Snape). I think there's
more evidence that he did know than that he did not.

Andy.
--
I'm not really here, it's just your warped imagination
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