More on the Fidelius Charm

Post by Welsh Dog
Grimmauld Place was protected by a Fidelius Charm with Dumbledore as
the Secret Keeper. When he died, others who knew the secret could see
it. Nobody else could.
The Potters hid their house in Godric's Hollow using a Fidelius Charm.
Sirius was going to become the Secret Keeper but passed it on to Peter
Pettigrew. Peter in turn passed the secret to Voldemort who went on to
kill the Potters exploding part of the house.
Peter however is still alive... yet when Harry and Hermione turned up
there was the house. A bit of a wreck... but with most of it still
intact.
"Harry-" "Look . Look at it, Hermione ." "I don't . oh!"
He could see it; the Fidelius Charm must have died with
James and Lily.
How does this work? Surely with Peter still alive this shouldn't have
been possible?? Isn't it the *house* that's protected not the people
inside??
Or have I missed something important (again)? :)
Welshdog

The Fidelius Charm seem to have given Rowling lots of trouble even though it
is only mentioned 9 times in the 7 books put together.

I suppose if the secret is "James & Lily are hiding at such and such a house
in Godric's Hollow" then the secret ended when they died.

When I was in high school a girl [Debbie] told me a secret that she like
this boy [Dave]. I have no idea why, I was much cuter than Dave, anyway. I
promised her never to tell anyone the secret. I few weeks later they were
obviously dating.... EVERYONE knew it, I never said a word. Then someone
asked me where Debbie was and I said as a joke "Find Dave and you'll find
Debbie". Debbie heard I said the joke and yelled at me for telling her
secret. I of course felt it was unjust because it was public knowledge that
they were dating, everyone was joking about it. BTW I never told anyone she
told me the secret. Anyway I'm rambling like a Welsh Dog :). The secret was
over.

Drusilla

2008-08-21 03:09:54 UTC

The Fidelius Charm seem to have given Rowling lots of trouble even
though it is only mentioned 9 times in the 7 books put together.
I suppose if the secret is "James & Lily are hiding at such and such a
house in Godric's Hollow" then the secret ended when they died.
When I was in high school a girl [Debbie] told me a secret that she like
this boy [Dave]. I have no idea why, I was much cuter than Dave, anyway.
I promised her never to tell anyone the secret. I few weeks later they
were obviously dating.... EVERYONE knew it, I never said a word. Then
someone asked me where Debbie was and I said as a joke "Find Dave and
you'll find Debbie". Debbie heard I said the joke and yelled at me for
telling her secret. I of course felt it was unjust because it was public
knowledge that they were dating, everyone was joking about it. BTW I
never told anyone she told me the secret. Anyway I'm rambling like a
Welsh Dog :). The secret was over.

Just because everyone knew that doesn't mean it was official :P I mean,
if you tell the "secret" before she did, then, it was kinda your fault.
I guess. ANd, yes, I believe you were cuter :D

Toon

2008-08-21 14:46:21 UTC

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 22:09:54 -0500, Drusilla

Post by Drusilla
Just because everyone knew that doesn't mean it was official :P I mean,
if you tell the "secret" before she did, then, it was kinda your fault.
I guess. ANd, yes, I believe you were cuter :D

In my elementary school, the computer password was a secret, despite
being posted on all the walls. You couldn't tell anybody it, but you
could direct them to look at the closest wall.

Sometimes, it's all about keeping your word.

Here in Minnesota!

2008-08-21 20:58:17 UTC

Post by Toon
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 22:09:54 -0500, Drusilla

In my defense... I feel like I did keep my word. I didn't tell anyone she
confided anything to me. My joke was based on public knowledge.

The odd thing is I told the joke to help protect the secret. My friend Rick
asked me if they were serious and what I knew [we were all part of a
click]... I gave a non-committal "I don't know".... he then said that I must
know something because I've been so quiet... we were like the Weasley
twins... also joking about such things. So I told the joke later to not look
suspicious by my silence.

This is why I agree... you can't do a FC on something that is public
knowledge.

Toon

2008-08-21 14:23:49 UTC

Post by Welsh Dog
Grimmauld Place was protected by a Fidelius Charm with Dumbledore as
the Secret Keeper. When he died, others who knew the secret could see
it. Nobody else could.
The Potters hid their house in Godric's Hollow using a Fidelius Charm.
Sirius was going to become the Secret Keeper but passed it on to Peter
Pettigrew. Peter in turn passed the secret to Voldemort who went on to
kill the Potters exploding part of the house.
Peter however is still alive... yet when Harry and Hermione turned up
there was the house. A bit of a wreck... but with most of it still
intact.
Harry Look Look at it, Hermione I dont oh!
He could see it; the Fidelius Charm must have died with
James and Lily.
How does this work? Surely with Peter still alive this shouldn't have
been possible?? Isn't it the *house* that's protected not the people
inside??
Or have I missed something important (again)? :)
Welshdog

Actually, the house wasn't hidden, they were hidden inside. Hence
Voldemort being able to look through the living room window and not
see them. Their death terminated the secret, as it pertained to them.

Welsh Dog

2008-08-22 05:51:10 UTC

Post by Welsh Dog
Grimmauld Place was protected by a Fidelius Charm with Dumbledore as
the Secret Keeper. When he died, others who knew the secret could see
it. Nobody else could.
The Potters hid their house in Godric's Hollow using a Fidelius Charm.
Sirius was going to become the Secret Keeper but passed it on to Peter
Pettigrew. Peter in turn passed the secret to Voldemort who went on to
kill the Potters exploding part of the house.
Peter however is still alive... yet when Harry and Hermione turned up
there was the house. A bit of a wreck... but with most of it still
intact.
Harry Look Look at it, Hermione I dont oh!
He could see it; the Fidelius Charm must have died with
James and Lily.
How does this work? Surely with Peter still alive this shouldn't have
been possible?? Isn't it the *house* that's protected not the people
inside??
Or have I missed something important (again)? :)

So there are different types of Fidelius Charms?? Else how does
Grimmauld Place get hidden by one?

Welshdog

--
News and views... for people like youse!!

Australian Opinion
(http://australianopinion.com)

Not as strange as it looks!

Here in Minnesota!

2008-08-22 06:09:04 UTC

Post by Welsh Dog
So there are different types of Fidelius Charms?? Else how does
Grimmauld Place get hidden by one?
Welshdog

!

Same charm, different secrets

James and Lilly the secret in one FC

12 GP is the headquarters the secret in another FC

Thommadura

2008-08-22 10:26:07 UTC

Post by Welsh Dog
Grimmauld Place was protected by a Fidelius Charm with Dumbledore as
the Secret Keeper. When he died, others who knew the secret could see
it. Nobody else could.
The Potters hid their house in Godric's Hollow using a Fidelius Charm.
Sirius was going to become the Secret Keeper but passed it on to Peter
Pettigrew. Peter in turn passed the secret to Voldemort who went on to
kill the Potters exploding part of the house.
Peter however is still alive... yet when Harry and Hermione turned up
there was the house. A bit of a wreck... but with most of it still
intact.
“Harry—” “Look … Look at it, Hermione …” “I don’t … oh!”
He could see it; the Fidelius Charm must have died with
James and Lily.
How does this work? Surely with Peter still alive this shouldn't have
been possible?? Isn't it the *house* that's protected not the people
inside??
Or have I missed something important (again)? :)

So there are different types of Fidelius Charms?? Else how does
Grimmauld Place get hidden by one?
Welshdog

12 GP was not hidden by the Fidelius - it was hidden by the addtional
charms that were placed on it by Sirius' father to make it unplottable
to muggles.

If you look at the book - you will see that Harry learned the Secret -
at the Dursleys house. So - by the time he got to 12 GP HE ALREADY KNEW
the secret - yet the house did not appear to him. That says that there
were other things involved.

AS was pointed out - the Potter residence was seen - even by muggles -
while they were in hiding - VOldemort could put his nose right on a
window of the house and not see Lily. James, and Harry hiding there
because the secret was that they were hiding there - not the location of
the house.

THe secret was that 12GP was the Headquarters of the OOP - not the
location of the house.

AS I have said in the past - the FD is only capable of hiding something
that can be a secret - and the location of a house like 12 GP does not
qualify. THe black family - which includes Belatrix and Narcissa - would
know where the house was. In fact - it was the possibility that the
house would belong to one of them after sirius died that required the
OOP to leave.

Welsh Dog

2008-08-22 11:56:59 UTC

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 06:26:07 -0400, Thommadura

Post by Thommadura

Post by Welsh Dog
Grimmauld Place was protected by a Fidelius Charm with Dumbledore as
the Secret Keeper. When he died, others who knew the secret could see
it. Nobody else could.
The Potters hid their house in Godric's Hollow using a Fidelius Charm.
Sirius was going to become the Secret Keeper but passed it on to Peter
Pettigrew. Peter in turn passed the secret to Voldemort who went on to
kill the Potters exploding part of the house.
Peter however is still alive... yet when Harry and Hermione turned up
there was the house. A bit of a wreck... but with most of it still
intact.
Harry Look Look at it, Hermione I dont oh!
He could see it; the Fidelius Charm must have died with
James and Lily.
How does this work? Surely with Peter still alive this shouldn't have
been possible?? Isn't it the *house* that's protected not the people
inside??
Or have I missed something important (again)? :)

So there are different types of Fidelius Charms?? Else how does
Grimmauld Place get hidden by one?

12 GP was not hidden by the Fidelius - it was hidden by the addtional
charms that were placed on it by Sirius' father to make it unplottable
to muggles.

Totally wrong... see below.

Post by Thommadura
If you look at the book - you will see that Harry learned the Secret -
at the Dursleys house. So - by the time he got to 12 GP HE ALREADY KNEW
the secret - yet the house did not appear to him. That says that there
were other things involved.

Totally wrong - see below.

Post by Thommadura
AS was pointed out - the Potter residence was seen - even by muggles -
while they were in hiding - Voldemort could put his nose right on a
window of the house and not see Lily. James, and Harry hiding there
because the secret was that they were hiding there - not the location of
the house.

And this is one of the problems with the use of the charm. It seemed
to behave differently in different parts of the book!!!

Post by Thommadura
The secret was that 12GP was the Headquarters of the OOP - not the
location of the house.

Totally wrong - see below.

Post by Thommadura
AS I have said in the past - the FD is only capable of hiding something
that can be a secret - and the location of a house like 12 GP does not
qualify. THe black family - which includes Belatrix and Narcissa - would
know where the house was. In fact - it was the possibility that the
house would belong to one of them after sirius died that required the
OOP to leave.

So.... your suggestion is that Bellatrix actually *did know the secret
of where the *house* was... and that she could have entered the house
and looked around without discovering it was the HQ of the OoP!!!

That's interesting, because the idea Bellatrix might arrive at the
house seemed to be exactly what DD was afraid would happen of when
Sirius died!

The important excerpt is from the beginning of HPB where DD states
quite categorically:

"The situation is fraught with complications. We do not
know whether the enchantments we ourselves have placed
upon it, for example, making it Unplottable, will hold now that
ownership has passed from Sirius's hands. It might be that
Bellatrix will arrive on the doorstep at any moment. Naturally
we had to move out until such time as we have clarified the
position,"

Also... it appears the house was *not* made Unplottable by the Blacks,
but by DD himself!! Also, it appears that Bellatrix, despite her clear
affiliations with the ideas of the Blacks had never set foot in the
house... else she'd have know where it was and could have apparated
straight onto the front step herself, had she wished to!

By the way... it appears the *entire house* was hidden by the Fidelius
Charm because when Harry got to London he did *not* know the location
of the headquarters *or* 'the secret' - he learned that immediately
outside the house and it was when he knew the secret and 'thought it'
that it appeared..

Read these excerpts for verification!!

Excerpts:
Where are we going? The Burrow?' Harry asked hopefully.
'Not The Burrow, no,' said Lupin, motioning Harry towards the kitchen;
the little knot of wizards followed, all still eyeing Harry curiously.
Too risky. We've set up Headquarters somewhere un-detectable. It's
taken a while'

then later...

'How're we getting - wherever we're going?' Harry asked.

and then...

'Here,' Moody muttered, thrusting a piece of parchment towards Harry's
Disillusioned hand and holding his lit wand close to it, so as to
illuminate the writing. 'Read quickly and memorise.'
Harry looked down at the piece of paper. The narrow handwriting was
vaguely familiar. It said:
The Headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix may be found at number
twelve, Grimmauld Place, London.

CHAPTER FOUR

Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place

'What's the Order of the -?' Harry began.
'Not here, boy!' snarled Moody. 'Wait till we're inside!'
He pulled the piece of parchment out of Harry's hand and set fire to
it with his wand-tip. As the message curled into flames and floated to
the ground, Harry looked around at the houses again. They were
standing outside number eleven; he looked to the left and saw number
ten; to the right, however, was number thirteen.
'But where's -?'
Think about what you've just memorised,' said Lupin quietly.

... and the house appeared.

Welshdog

--
News and views... for people like youse!!

Australian Opinion
(http://australianopinion.com)

Not as strange as it looks!

Toon

2008-08-23 14:36:03 UTC

Post by Welsh Dog
That's interesting, because the idea Bellatrix might arrive at the
house seemed to be exactly what DD was afraid would happen of when
Sirius died!

In all fairness, the spell was implied to have been broken with Siirus
death had Bellatrix been the rightful heir, so it's no problem for her
to come in with an active Charm.

Of course, even if she can't see or hear them (presumably), she could
bump into them. Notice things floating around or disappearing. Very
impractical. Best to hide the whole house. Even if she knows where
it is, she can't access it.

Post by Welsh Dog
The important excerpt is from the beginning of HPB where DD states
"The situation is fraught with complications. We do not
know whether the enchantments we ourselves have placed
upon it, for example, making it Unplottable, will hold now that
ownership has passed from Sirius's hands. It might be that
Bellatrix will arrive on the doorstep at any moment. Naturally
we had to move out until such time as we have clarified the
position,"
Also... it appears the house was *not* made Unplottable by the Blacks,
but by DD himself!! Also, it appears that Bellatrix, despite her clear
affiliations with the ideas of the Blacks had never set foot in the
house... else she'd have know where it was and could have apparated
straight onto the front step herself, had she wished to!
By the way... it appears the *entire house* was hidden by the Fidelius
Charm because when Harry got to London he did *not* know the location
of the headquarters *or* 'the secret' - he learned that immediately
outside the house and it was when he knew the secret and 'thought it'
that it appeared..
Read these excerpts for verification!!
Where are we going? The Burrow?' Harry asked hopefully.
'Not The Burrow, no,' said Lupin, motioning Harry towards the kitchen;
the little knot of wizards followed, all still eyeing Harry curiously.
Too risky. We've set up Headquarters somewhere un-detectable. It's
taken a while'
then later...
'How're we getting - wherever we're going?' Harry asked.
and then...
'Here,' Moody muttered, thrusting a piece of parchment towards Harry's
Disillusioned hand and holding his lit wand close to it, so as to
illuminate the writing. 'Read quickly and memorise.'
Harry looked down at the piece of paper. The narrow handwriting was
The Headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix may be found at number
twelve, Grimmauld Place, London.

AH HA! The HQ OF. Not the OOP is. The HQ is 12 GP, and therefore
the secret. The house is the secret, and thus invisible to all not in
the know. DD's secret is the HQ is at 12 GP (an address), and thus
the HQ itself is hidden from everyone else. His secret is not the OOP
is operating from within the house.

Of course, writing the secret out isn't very secure. One gust of wind
and Joe Schmoe now knows it.

Post by Welsh Dog
CHAPTER FOUR
Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place
'What's the Order of the -?' Harry began.
'Not here, boy!' snarled Moody. 'Wait till we're inside!'
He pulled the piece of parchment out of Harry's hand and set fire to
it with his wand-tip. As the message curled into flames and floated to
the ground, Harry looked around at the houses again. They were
standing outside number eleven; he looked to the left and saw number
ten; to the right, however, was number thirteen.

Thus even knowing the secret isn't enough to break it.

Post by Welsh Dog
'But where's -?'
Think about what you've just memorised,' said Lupin quietly.
... and the house appeared.

Thus proving you must think about the secret to break it. Kind alike
death and Threstrals. Experiencing is not enough. You have to think
about it, dwell on it, accept it.

Thommadura

2008-08-25 20:09:29 UTC

Post by Welsh Dog
That's interesting, because the idea Bellatrix might arrive at the
house seemed to be exactly what DD was afraid would happen of when
Sirius died!

In all fairness, the spell was implied to have been broken with Siirus
death had Bellatrix been the rightful heir, so it's no problem for her
to come in with an active Charm.
Of course, even if she can't see or hear them (presumably), she could
bump into them. Notice things floating around or disappearing. Very
impractical. Best to hide the whole house. Even if she knows where
it is, she can't access it.

Post by Welsh Dog
The important excerpt is from the beginning of HPB where DD states
"The situation is fraught with complications. We do not
know whether the enchantments we ourselves have placed
upon it, for example, making it Unplottable, will hold now that
ownership has passed from Sirius's hands. It might be that
Bellatrix will arrive on the doorstep at any moment. Naturally
we had to move out until such time as we have clarified the
position,"
Also... it appears the house was *not* made Unplottable by the Blacks,
but by DD himself!! Also, it appears that Bellatrix, despite her clear
affiliations with the ideas of the Blacks had never set foot in the
house... else she'd have know where it was and could have apparated
straight onto the front step herself, had she wished to!
By the way... it appears the *entire house* was hidden by the Fidelius
Charm because when Harry got to London he did *not* know the location
of the headquarters *or* 'the secret' - he learned that immediately
outside the house and it was when he knew the secret and 'thought it'
that it appeared..
Read these excerpts for verification!!
Where are we going? The Burrow?' Harry asked hopefully.
'Not The Burrow, no,' said Lupin, motioning Harry towards the kitchen;
the little knot of wizards followed, all still eyeing Harry curiously.
Too risky. We've set up Headquarters somewhere un-detectable. It's
taken a while…'
then later...
'How're we getting - wherever we're going?' Harry asked.
and then...
'Here,' Moody muttered, thrusting a piece of parchment towards Harry's
Disillusioned hand and holding his lit wand close to it, so as to
illuminate the writing. 'Read quickly and memorise.'
Harry looked down at the piece of paper. The narrow handwriting was
The Headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix may be found at number
twelve, Grimmauld Place, London.

AH HA! The HQ OF. Not the OOP is. The HQ is 12 GP, and therefore
the secret. The house is the secret, and thus invisible to all not in
the know. DD's secret is the HQ is at 12 GP (an address), and thus
the HQ itself is hidden from everyone else. His secret is not the OOP
is operating from within the house.
Of course, writing the secret out isn't very secure. One gust of wind
and Joe Schmoe now knows it.

Post by Welsh Dog
— CHAPTER FOUR —
Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place
'What's the Order of the -?' Harry began.
'Not here, boy!' snarled Moody. 'Wait till we're inside!'
He pulled the piece of parchment out of Harry's hand and set fire to
it with his wand-tip. As the message curled into flames and floated to
the ground, Harry looked around at the houses again. They were
standing outside number eleven; he looked to the left and saw number
ten; to the right, however, was number thirteen.

Thus even knowing the secret isn't enough to break it.

Post by Welsh Dog
'But where's -?'
Think about what you've just memorised,' said Lupin quietly.
... and the house appeared.

Thus proving you must think about the secret to break it. Kind alike
death and Threstrals. Experiencing is not enough. You have to think
about it, dwell on it, accept it.

Having spent the last three days looking at all the problems with the
Fidelius charm - as stated in the books and on JK's website. - I have
come to the conclusion that it is still another subject - like Harry not
truly being a horcrux - that will not be settled until JKR writes her
encyclopedia.

In Flitwick's definition - and on JKR's website - it is clear that the
charm protects a SECRET. Both she and flitwick clearly say that. No
where in the books or on her web site does it say that the FC can MAKE
something a secret.

So - we must decide what a secret is - and that is not clear - at least
in the wizarding world. The question is - can something that is known by
people other than those involved in the spell - be a secret?

For instance - would it be possible to hide Hogwarts from all wizards
with a Fidelius charm? Remember - virtually all wizards in England have
attended Hogwarts. I say no.

If you agree - then the FC did not hide the Black house itself - only
the activity going on inside it. That would seem to agree with the
Potter residence FC - which hid the Potters - but not the house.

However - there are so many conflicting situations and incomplete
information regarding the FC that we really don't have enough to
understand all it can or cannot do.

Welsh Dog

2008-08-25 21:50:58 UTC

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 16:09:29 -0400, Thommadura
<snip>

Post by Thommadura
However - there are so many conflicting situations and incomplete
information regarding the FC that we really don't have enough to
understand all it can or cannot do.

How I wish there was some way to persuade JKR to write more books
about the magical world. They needn't even be about Harry... it's the
Potterverse itself we want more of to give us some structure.

Of course... the **real** problem is that we are taking a work of
fiction about impossible actions and trying to impose a logical
structure on it... it's fun though!! :)

Welshdog

--
News and views... for people like youse!!

Australian Opinion
(http://australianopinion.com)

Not as strange as it looks!

Toon

2008-08-26 13:59:48 UTC

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 16:09:29 -0400, Thommadura

Post by Thommadura
For instance - would it be possible to hide Hogwarts from all wizards
with a Fidelius charm? Remember - virtually all wizards in England have
attended Hogwarts. I say no.

I say yes, but no one would. (Assuming there aren't AntiFC charms in
place.)

Post by Thommadura
If you agree -

Which I don't.

Post by Thommadura
then the FC did not hide the Black house itself - only
the activity going on inside it.

Except the book clearly shows the house was hidden. Harry could not
see it until he learned the secret, and thought about it. Even
learning the secret wasn't enough. Only when he actually thought
about it did it break for him. Seems invisible things are given up if
properly acknowledged and accepted.

Post by Thommadura
That would seem to agree with the
Potter residence FC - which hid the Potters - but not the house.

Well, that's because the house wasn't the secret. The Black's House
was the secret. Different secrets, different results. You cannot use
one to fully prove the other.

Post by Thommadura
However - there are so many conflicting situations and incomplete
information regarding the FC that we really don't have enough to
understand all it can or cannot do.

It's help if JK could make up her mind about it. But again, the books
are the ultimate authority.

Rob Strom

2008-08-26 16:35:32 UTC

Post by Welsh Dog
On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 16:09:29 -0400, Thommadura

...

Post by Thommadura
then the FC did not hide the Black house itself - only
the activity going on inside it.

Except the book clearly shows the house was hidden.

Yes, the house was hidden, and there was a FC, but
that doesn't mean that the house was hidden *because*
of the FC.

There were two Charms explicitly discussed in the text,
and the implication of more.

There was the Fidelius Charm.
There was the Unplottability Charm.

These were explicitly mentioned. Additionally, the text
says there were multiple charms, and I think it's not
too much to stress that one of these charms makes
the house unaccessible to anyone not authorized
by the current owner. I would expect most wizarding
houses would have such a charm.

So this is how I picture the situation.

1. The Fidelius charm protects a secret, so that
only one individual can disclose this secret. In this
case the secret is that 12GP is the headquarters
of the OOTP. It doesn't by itself hide the house.

2. The Unplottability Charm hides the house.
Not clear who can see it, but certainly Muggles
can't see it.

3. The other charm prevents anyone not authorized
by the owner of the house from entering. While
Sirius is alive, he's the owner, which is probably
why Bellatrix, even if she can see the house,
can't enter it.

When Sirius died and left the house to Harry,
it wasn't clear to DD that the bequest was
properly probated magically, and hence whether
the next owner was Harry (by Sirius' will)
or Bellatrix (as next of kin). If it
was Bellatrix, then it was possible that she'd
be able to get in. In which case, even though
she didn't know that it was headquarters
of the OOTP, it would be very bad for
all these people to be hanging around the
house were she to show up. This explains
the need to summon Kreacher to test whether
he was magically bound to obey Harry.

There's also a bit of explaining that needs
to be done to account for how Harry isn't
violating the FC by revealing
"you can still use it as HQ" in front
of the Dursleys. You have to assume
that either the information won't
help the Dursleys or that they have
gone temporarily deaf while he utters
that sentence.

Post by Welsh Dog
Harry could not
see it until he learned the secret, and thought about it. Even
learning the secret wasn't enough. Only when he actually thought
about it did it break for him. Seems invisible things are given up if
properly acknowledged and accepted.

It could be that he needed to both be a wizard,
an authorized person,
and to concentrate about 12GP in order
to evade the Unplottability charm.

Post by Thommadura
That would seem to agree with the
Potter residence FC - which hid the Potters - but not the house.

Well, that's because the house wasn't the secret. The Black's House
was the secret.

I don't think so.

Now I do think that there's an inconsistency between the way JKR
described the FC in interviews, and the way she wrote about it in DH.

In interviews, when the secret-keeper dies, the ability to pass the
secret
is lost. In DH, when the secret-keeper dies, the ability to pass the
secret is shared by those who know the secret (and hence they
had to abandon 12GP once a death eater side-along apparated
there by accident). I think this episode was poorly thought through.

--
Rob Strom

Toon

2008-08-27 14:17:30 UTC

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 09:35:32 -0700 (PDT), Rob Strom

Post by Rob Strom
When Sirius died and left the house to Harry,
it wasn't clear to DD that the bequest was
properly probated magically, and hence whether
the next owner was Harry (by Sirius' will)
or Bellatrix (as next of kin). If it
was Bellatrix, then it was possible that she'd
be able to get in. In which case, even though
she didn't know that it was headquarters
of the OOTP, it would be very bad for
all these people to be hanging around the
house were she to show up. This explains
the need to summon Kreacher to test whether
he was magically bound to obey Harry.

How'd he do that anyway? He's not Kreacher's master.

Post by Rob Strom
There's also a bit of explaining that needs
to be done to account for how Harry isn't
violating the FC by revealing
"you can still use it as HQ" in front
of the Dursleys. You have to assume
that either the information won't
help the Dursleys or that they have
gone temporarily deaf while he utters
that sentence.

The spell might allow the owner of a secret to mention stuff too.

Or maybe by not specifically saying he house at 12 GP but it was a
loophole. And he never said who the HQ was for.

Maybe the secret broke when Sirius, the rightful owner died, and DD
needed to know if Harry owned it so he could reapply it. If not,
Bellatrix could find them.

Rob Strom

2008-08-27 19:01:46 UTC

Post by Toon
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 09:35:32 -0700 (PDT), Rob Strom

How'd he do that anyway? He's not Kreacher's master.

I think in the Potter world, he is Kreacher's master.

I think that just as medieval serfs were tied to the land,
house-elves are tied to the house and therefore,
unless explicitly given clothes and manumitted,
are the servants of whoever owns the house.

So DD arranged a test to see whether Kreacher
was magically bound as the servant of Harry.
If he was, that was evidence that Harry
was the owner of the house and not Bellatrix.

The spell might allow the owner of a secret to mention stuff too.

In my interpretation, secrets aren't objects and don't have owners.
The house wasn't the secret. Secrets are facts that only
a few people know. In this case, the fact was that
the OOTP Headquarters was located at 12GP.

My understanding is that the FC is designed so that
if there's a secret that only a few people know,
then when the Charm is operational, only one
of these people, the Secret-Keeper, may reveal
the secret to people who don't know it.

JKR doesn't disclose exactly what happens to
prevent wizards who know the secret but
who are not the Secret-Keeper from disclosing
the secret: that is, whether they become
mute when they try to utter it, or whether
they can utter it but
some Muffliato-like effect prevents the secret
from being heard or understood.

Post by Toon
Or maybe by not specifically saying he house at 12 GP but it was a
loophole. And he never said who the HQ was for.

It's possible that since he just said "use it as HQ" and
not "use it as HQ for the OOTP" that was enough,
since the Dursleys did not know what the OOTP was.
But it still seems that if Vernon were captured
by Death Eaters and forced to reveal this conversation
there was enough information so that the
captors could figure out the secret.

Post by Toon
Maybe the secret broke when Sirius, the rightful owner died,

I don't agree. Secrets don't have owners. The house
had an owner, but the fact that it was HQ was still true
(although DD was reluctant to enter the HQ until
the ownership of the house was settled).

Post by Toon
and DD
needed to know if Harry owned it so he could reapply it. If not,
Bellatrix could find them.

In my interpretation, if Bellatrix were the owner of the house,
she could enter it despite the FC, because even though
she didn't know it was the OOTP headquarters, the doors
would open for her.

--
Rob Strom

Welsh Dog

2008-08-27 21:16:59 UTC

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 12:01:46 -0700 (PDT), Rob Strom

Post by Rob Strom

Post by Toon
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 09:35:32 -0700 (PDT), Rob Strom

How'd he do that anyway? He's not Kreacher's master.

I think in the Potter world, he is Kreacher's master.
I think that just as medieval serfs were tied to the land,
house-elves are tied to the house and therefore,
unless explicitly given clothes and manumitted,
are the servants of whoever owns the house.
So DD arranged a test to see whether Kreacher
was magically bound as the servant of Harry.
If he was, that was evidence that Harry
was the owner of the house and not Bellatrix.

Yes but it was DD who called him not his master... Harry!!

Welshdog

--
News and views... for people like youse!!

Australian Opinion
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Not as strange as it looks!

Welsh Dog

2008-08-27 21:14:36 UTC

Post by Toon
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 09:35:32 -0700 (PDT), Rob Strom

This explains the need to summon Kreacher to
test whether he was magically bound to obey Harry.

How'd he do that anyway? He's not Kreacher's master.

Actually that's yet another good catch! There are all sorts of little
things like this we've been noticing now that don't really fit in with
the 'known facts' :)

What DD *should* have done is tell *Harry* to call Kreacher to see if
he would obey his new master and arrive on call! :)

Ok maybe DD had Kreacher under some other sort of spell to control him
until he could work out who his real master/mistress' was but still,
it's a bit ambiguous.

Welshdog

--
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Australian Opinion
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Not as strange as it looks!

Thommadura

2008-08-28 00:05:28 UTC

Post by Toon
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 09:35:32 -0700 (PDT), Rob Strom

How'd he do that anyway? He's not Kreacher's master.

The spell might allow the owner of a secret to mention stuff too.
Or maybe by not specifically saying he house at 12 GP but it was a
loophole. And he never said who the HQ was for.
Maybe the secret broke when Sirius, the rightful owner died, and DD
needed to know if Harry owned it so he could reapply it. If not,
Bellatrix could find them.

I still believe it goes back to what a secret is - and what it is not.

WHen Sirius died - his closest living relatives were Belatrix and
Narcissa. If Sirius did not have a will - the house would have passed to
them. I still believe it is not possible to hide someones own property
from them.

However - there is another possible explanation.

When Lily and James were killed - their FC ended. We know it ended
because Hagrid - who was not in on the secret - was able to find Harry
there. We also know that Dumbledore was not in on the secret - since he
thought Sirius was the secret keeper.

BUT - the secret keeper was still alive - Peter Petigrew.

So - it at least appears that once the secret itself is over - the spell
is over. OR - it could be that once the charm casters died - the spell
ended. That second possibility is the logical one - for a basic reason.

The Potter house spell protected ALL Three Potters(Lily, James, and
Harry) - but ended when Lily And James died. IF part of the secret and
the secret keeper were still alive - you would expect the secret to
continue. But it did not. However - Harry was too young to be a charm
caster - so it was likely that only James and Lily cast the spell - with
Peter as the secret keeper. Once the spell casters were dead - the
spell ended.

SO - if you look again at 12 GP - Dumbldore was the secret keeper - so
it is likely that sirius cast the spell - since it was his house. Once
the spell caster was dead - ie Sirius - the spell ended.

Toon

2008-08-28 14:27:19 UTC

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 20:05:28 -0400, Thommadura

Post by Thommadura
When Lily and James were killed - their FC ended. We know it ended
because Hagrid - who was not in on the secret - was able to find Harry
there. We also know that Dumbledore was not in on the secret - since he
thought Sirius was the secret keeper.

Did they not know? A lot of people seemed to know they were there.
Could Peter have written the info to be given to a select few?

Or is my theory right, and the secret was always from V and the DE's,
and therefore DD, Hagrid, et al could know it, find them, but never
reveal they were there to others.

The FC really needs to be explained in detail.

http://www.zotfish.com/celeb.php?id=16027

Someone asked if Malofy Manner can be hidden from Draco. Vote it up,
and we might get an answer.

Toon

2008-08-22 14:24:33 UTC

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 06:26:07 -0400, Thommadura

Post by Thommadura
12 GP was not hidden by the Fidelius

Yet it reveals itself only after Harry learns the secret. And yet
nothing is done to break any of the other alleged spells on it.

Post by Thommadura
- it was hidden by the addtional
charms that were placed on it by Sirius' father to make it unplottable
to muggles.

Was it? Those spells should only work on Muggless, not wizards.

Post by Thommadura
If you look at the book

I think you need to reread the beginning of OOP again (since once
again, you do not acknowledge a quote that proves you wrong). Though,
I suppose you could have a different version of it. Wasn't there a
change in words in a sentence in one them (not corrections like wand
orders or such)? Possibly Snape Triumphant in DH.

Post by Thommadura
- you will see that Harry learned the Secret -
at the Dursleys house.

No he didn't. He learned it at GP. He reads it, looks around, sees
nothing, is told to think about the secret, it then appears. What
part of that sounds like The Durselys, or breaking of any other
Charms? That sounds exactly like what learning a secret would entail.

Post by Thommadura
So - by the time he got to 12 GP HE ALREADY KNEW
the secret - yet the house did not appear to him. That says that there
were other things involved.

Like, the fact that you actually have to think about the secret, as
Lupin tells Harry?

Post by Thommadura
AS was pointed out - the Potter residence was seen - even by muggles -
while they were in hiding - VOldemort could put his nose right on a
window of the house and not see Lily. James, and Harry hiding there
because the secret was that they were hiding there - not the location of
the house.

Which doesn't mean you can't hide a house.

Post by Thommadura
THe secret was that 12GP was the Headquarters of the OOP - not the
location of the house.

Apprently the house being OOP HQ made it invisible to others. Hence
Harry needing to be told the secret to find it (and it's subsequent
appearance after thinking about the learned secret), and the DE's
waiting outside, unable to find the house.

Post by Thommadura
AS I have said in the past - the FD is only capable of hiding something
that can be a secret - and the location of a house like 12 GP does not
qualify.

Yet you have supplied no proof, whilst the book supplies proof that a
location can be hidden. As the house most certainly was.

Post by Thommadura
THe black family - which includes Belatrix and Narcissa - would
know where the house was.

Knowit, but never access it. That's called security. otherwise, why
not enter it and start AKing? Why not build a brick wall by the doors
and windows, and put in an anti app spell. Trap those within, within,
those without without. Oh, and disconnect the fireplace from the
Floo.

They don't, because they can't. They can't, because they can't find
the house to get inside to do those things.

Post by Thommadura
In fact - it was the possibility that the
house would belong to one of them after sirius died that required the
OOP to leave.

Thus proving a change in ownership negates the spell on an ownable
secret. Thus, Ron could not hide Malfoy Manner from Draco, but Lucius
could. A punishment that forces him to fend for himself and become "a
real man" for instance.

Toon

2008-08-22 14:12:03 UTC

Post by Welsh Dog
Grimmauld Place was protected by a Fidelius Charm with Dumbledore as
the Secret Keeper. When he died, others who knew the secret could see
it. Nobody else could.
The Potters hid their house in Godric's Hollow using a Fidelius Charm.
Sirius was going to become the Secret Keeper but passed it on to Peter
Pettigrew. Peter in turn passed the secret to Voldemort who went on to
kill the Potters exploding part of the house.
Peter however is still alive... yet when Harry and Hermione turned up
there was the house. A bit of a wreck... but with most of it still
intact.
Harry Look Look at it, Hermione I dont oh!
He could see it; the Fidelius Charm must have died with
James and Lily.
How does this work? Surely with Peter still alive this shouldn't have
been possible?? Isn't it the *house* that's protected not the people
inside??
Or have I missed something important (again)? :)

So there are different types of Fidelius Charms?? Else how does
Grimmauld Place get hidden by one?
Welshdog

Same charm, different secret. People would notice the Potter House
vanishing. Most wizards don't even know of 12GP. Bellatrix might
have assumed Sirius would never return their if it was familial
knowledge of his hatred of his family. He might have suggested it's
use precisely because his cousins wouldn't expect him there. Hiding
the whole house wouldn't be as noticeable as a house where wizards
live.

Of course the simplest solution is JK has no idea what she's writing
about when it comes to the FC, and she makes it work by whatever way's
convenient to the plot.

Welsh Dog

2008-08-22 21:18:56 UTC

<snip>

Post by Welsh Dog
So there are different types of Fidelius Charms?? Else how does
Grimmauld Place get hidden by one?

Same charm, different secret. People would notice the Potter House
vanishing. Most wizards don't even know of 12GP. Bellatrix might
have assumed Sirius would never return their if it was familial
knowledge of his hatred of his family. He might have suggested it's
use precisely because his cousins wouldn't expect him there. Hiding
the whole house wouldn't be as noticeable as a house where wizards
live.
Of course the simplest solution is JK has no idea what she's writing
about when it comes to the FC, and she makes it work by whatever way's
convenient to the plot.

Sadly I think that last theory is probably the most accurate! :)

I don't think she'd really thought it through clearly!

Welshdog

--
News and views... for people like youse!!

Australian Opinion
(http://australianopinion.com)

Not as strange as it looks!

DaveD

2008-09-02 22:08:44 UTC

So there are different types of Fidelius Charms?? Else how does
Grimmauld Place get hidden by one?
Welshdog

Same charm, different secret. People would notice the Potter House
vanishing. Most wizards don't even know of 12GP. Bellatrix might
have assumed Sirius would never return their if it was familial
knowledge of his hatred of his family. He might have suggested it's
use precisely because his cousins wouldn't expect him there. Hiding
the whole house wouldn't be as noticeable as a house where wizards
live.
Of course the simplest solution is JK has no idea what she's writing
about when it comes to the FC, and she makes it work by whatever way's
convenient to the plot.

Clearly, I think the exact wording of secret is paramount - depending on how
you phrase it, you could leave a building but hide the inhabitants (Godrics
Hollow) or hide the building as well (12GP). As for why Harry could see it,
when James and Lily died, they were no longer hiding there (if the wording
was "the Potters" or "the Potter family").

Also, it's been suggested that you couldn't use the FC to hide a house or
someone's possessions as that would create mass confusion (imagine Fred and
George!) However, Prof. Flitwick in PoA explains that it's an "immensely
complex spell", and not everyone seems to have heard of it anyway, so
perhaps it's only very good wizards like Dd and presumably Voldy could
actually cast it, which limits the number of people who could create
confusion in the first place.

DaveD

Toon

2008-09-03 14:38:42 UTC

On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 23:08:44 +0100, "DaveD"

Post by DaveD
Also, it's been suggested that you couldn't use the FC to hide a house or
someone's possessions as that would create mass confusion (imagine Fred and
George!) However, Prof. Flitwick in PoA explains that it's an "immensely
complex spell", and not everyone seems to have heard of it anyway, so
perhaps it's only very good wizards like Dd and presumably Voldy could
actually cast it, which limits the number of people who could create
confusion in the first place.
DaveD

The only problem with that is the patronus was a tough one, least of
all corporeal. And almost the whole order could do it, and Harry
quickly trained the DA into doing it. So, how hard can it really be?
Are wizards that lazy? Can the FC be "hard" like a patronus, until
anybody puts a little time into perfecting it?

DaveD

2008-09-08 20:04:25 UTC

Post by Toon
On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 23:08:44 +0100, "DaveD"

I guess there's tough and there's fiendishly complex?! ISTR most of Dd's
Army managed patronuses so perhaps that's more persistence, whereas an FC is
more fiddly and requires extra magical dexterity and subtlety that most
don't have?

Incidentally, in OotP, at the inaugural or pre-meeting of the DA in the pub,
Susan Bones asks about Harry producing a corporeal patronus having heard
about it from her mother who was at the hearing at the MoM. Yet in PoA Harry
produces a corporeal patronus in front of the whole school when Draco and
friends imitate a dementor to try and scare Harry.

Thinking of patronuses, I'm just rereading GoF - following the DEs rioting
at the Quidditch World Cup, instead of having an early start the next
morning to try and reassure Molly as soon as possible, why didn't Arthur
didn't just send her a patronus which would have been instant, just like
Kingsley Shacklebolt did to warn the wedding party that the MoM had fallen
(which is one of my favourite, most chilling scenes, from all of the books).

DaveD

Toon

2008-09-09 14:36:26 UTC

On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 21:04:25 +0100, "DaveD"

Post by Toon
On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 23:08:44 +0100, "DaveD"

I'm not sure people were paying much attention then to know what Harry
did. Too freaked out dementors are attacking.

Post by DaveD
Thinking of patronuses, I'm just rereading GoF - following the DEs rioting
at the Quidditch World Cup, instead of having an early start the next
morning to try and reassure Molly as soon as possible, why didn't Arthur
didn't just send her a patronus which would have been instant, just like
Kingsley Shacklebolt did to warn the wedding party that the MoM had fallen
(which is one of my favourite, most chilling scenes, from all of the books).
DaveD

Perhaps DD hadn't taught him how to do it yet. He didn't join the
Order till after GOF. Maybe DD hadn't discovered that use yet.

Welsh Dog

2008-09-10 01:52:50 UTC

Post by Toon
On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 21:04:25 +0100, "DaveD"

Post by Toon
On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 23:08:44 +0100, "DaveD"

<snip>

Post by Toon
.... He didn't join the Order till after GOF.

Really?? Where did you dig that nugget up from?? I thought Arthur and
Molly were both in the order... especially given that Molly's brothers
had been killed by Voldie!!

Welshdog

--
News and views... for people like youse!!

Australian Opinion
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Not as strange as it looks!

Toon

2008-09-10 14:08:32 UTC

Post by Toon
On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 21:04:25 +0100, "DaveD"

Post by Toon
On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 23:08:44 +0100, "DaveD"

<snip>

Post by Toon
.... He didn't join the Order till after GOF.

Really?? Where did you dig that nugget up from??

When DD recruits them at the end, that isn't an of course you'll
rejoin request. Plus they had a bunch of young kids at the time, and
less likely to join and risk life and limb.

Post by Welsh Dog
I thought Arthur and
Molly were both in the order... especially given that Molly's brothers
had been killed by Voldie!!
Welshdog

Just because they were killed by him, doesn't mean they were
Phoneixes, nor does it mean the whole family was.

Steve Morrison

2008-09-10 14:21:26 UTC

Post by Toon
On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 21:04:25 +0100, "DaveD"

Post by Toon
On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 23:08:44 +0100, "DaveD"

<snip>

Post by Toon
.... He didn't join the Order till after GOF.

Really?? Where did you dig that nugget up from??

When DD recruits them at the end, that isn't an of course you'll
rejoin request. Plus they had a bunch of young kids at the time, and
less likely to join and risk life and limb.

Post by Welsh Dog
I thought Arthur and
Molly were both in the order... especially given that Molly's brothers
had been killed by Voldie!!
Welshdog

Just because they were killed by him, doesn't mean they were
Phoneixes, nor does it mean the whole family was.

They (Molly's brothers) were in the original Order, according
to the old photo Moody showed Harry. Molly, though, definitely
wasn't; Lupin said she hadn't been when he was trying to
reassure her after the Boggart scene in OOTP.

Welsh Dog

2008-09-10 21:21:13 UTC

Post by Toon
On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 21:04:25 +0100, "DaveD"

Post by Toon
On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 23:08:44 +0100, "DaveD"

<snip>

Post by Toon
.... He didn't join the Order till after GOF.

Really?? Where did you dig that nugget up from??

When DD recruits them at the end, that isn't an of course you'll
rejoin request. Plus they had a bunch of young kids at the time, and
less likely to join and risk life and limb.

Post by Welsh Dog
I thought Arthur and
Molly were both in the order... especially given that Molly's brothers
had been killed by Voldie!!

Just because they were killed by him, doesn't mean they were
Phoneixes, nor does it mean the whole family was.

Neither Moody nor Harry mention the Weasley's so how do you know they
weren't in it??

Besides... the only people Moody mentioned (with the exception of
Sirius who had short hair than) were people Harry had never met before
so why would they mention Arthur and Molly??

Welshdog

--
News and views... for people like youse!!

Australian Opinion
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Not as strange as it looks!

Steve Morrison

2008-09-11 00:42:46 UTC

Post by Toon
On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 21:04:25 +0100, "DaveD"

Post by Toon
On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 23:08:44 +0100, "DaveD"

<snip>

Post by Toon
.... He didn't join the Order till after GOF.

Really?? Where did you dig that nugget up from??

When DD recruits them at the end, that isn't an of course you'll
rejoin request. Plus they had a bunch of young kids at the time, and
less likely to join and risk life and limb.

Post by Welsh Dog
I thought Arthur and
Molly were both in the order... especially given that Molly's brothers
had been killed by Voldie!!

Just because they were killed by him, doesn't mean they were
Phoneixes, nor does it mean the whole family was.

Neither Moody nor Harry mention the Weasley's so how do you know they
weren't in it??
Besides... the only people Moody mentioned (with the exception of
Sirius who had short hair than) were people Harry had never met before
so why would they mention Arthur and Molly??
Welshdog

Molly's brothers were the Prewetts (Gideon and Fabian).

Toon

2008-09-11 14:33:53 UTC

Post by Toon
On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 21:04:25 +0100, "DaveD"

Post by Toon
On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 23:08:44 +0100, "DaveD"

<snip>

Post by Toon
.... He didn't join the Order till after GOF.

Really?? Where did you dig that nugget up from??

When DD recruits them at the end, that isn't an of course you'll
rejoin request. Plus they had a bunch of young kids at the time, and
less likely to join and risk life and limb.

Post by Welsh Dog
I thought Arthur and
Molly were both in the order... especially given that Molly's brothers
had been killed by Voldie!!

Just because they were killed by him, doesn't mean they were
Phoneixes, nor does it mean the whole family was.

Neither Moody nor Harry mention the Weasley's so how do you know they
weren't in it??
Besides... the only people Moody mentioned (with the exception of
Sirius who had short hair than) were people Harry had never met before
so why would they mention Arthur and Molly??
Welshdog

He mentions tons Harry knows, through first hand experience or family.

Here in Minnesota!

2008-09-10 14:35:05 UTC

Post by Toon
On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 21:04:25 +0100, "DaveD"

Post by Toon
On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 23:08:44 +0100, "DaveD"

<snip>

Post by Toon
.... He didn't join the Order till after GOF.

Really?? Where did you dig that nugget up from??

When DD recruits them at the end, that isn't an of course you'll
rejoin request. Plus they had a bunch of young kids at the time, and
less likely to join and risk life and limb.

Post by Welsh Dog
I thought Arthur and
Molly were both in the order... especially given that Molly's brothers
had been killed by Voldie!!
Welshdog

Just because they were killed by him, doesn't mean they were
Phoneixes, nor does it mean the whole family was.

I too assumed that Arthur & Molly were Original Order of the Phoenix
Members; but I think these are the only one listed as being original
members...

James Potter
Lily Potter
Peter Pettigrew
Alastor "Mad-Eye" Moody
Remus Lupin
Sirius Black
Albus Dumbledore
Dedalus Diggle
Marlene McKinnon
Frank Longbottom
Alice Longbottom
Emmeline Vance
Benjy Fenwick
Edgar Bones
Sturgis Podmore
Caradoc Dearborn
Rubeus Hagrid
Elphias Doge
Gideon Prewett
Aberforth Dumbledore
Dorcas Meadowes
Fabian Prewett

Moody took a swig from his hipflask, his electric-blue eye staring sideways
at Harry.
'Come here, I've got something that might interest you,' he said.
From an inner pocket of his robes Moody pulled a very tattered old wizarding
photograph.
'Original Order of the Phoenix,' growled Moody. 'Found it last night when I
was looking for my spare Invisibility Cloak, seeing as Podmore hasn't had
the manners to return my best one. thought people might like to see it.'
Harry took the photograph. A small crowd of people, some waving at him,
others lifting their glasses, looked back up at him.
There's me,' said Moody, unnecessarily pointing at himself. The Moody in the
picture was unmistakable, though his hair was slightly less grey and his
nose was intact. 'And there's Dumbledore beside me, Dedalus Diggle on the
other side. that's Marlene McKinnon, she was killed two weeks after this was
taken, they got her whole family. That's Frank and Alice Longbottom -'
Harrys stomach, already uncomfortable, clenched as he looked at Alice
Longbottom; he knew her round, friendly face very well, even though he had
never met her, because she was the image of her son, Neville.
'- poor devils,' growled Moody. 'Better dead than what happened to them. and
that's Emmeline Vance, you've met her, and that there's Lupin, obviously.
Benjy Fenwick, he copped it too, we only ever found bits of him. shift aside
there,' he added, poking the picture, and the little photographic people
edged sideways, so that those who were partially obscured could move to the
front.
That's Edgar Bones. brother of Amelia Bones, they got him and his family,
too, he was a great wizard. Sturgis Podmore, blimey, he looks young. Caradoc
Dearborn, vanished six months after this, we never found his body. Hagrid,
of
course, looks exactly the same as ever. Elphias Doge, you've met him, I'd
forgotten he used to wear that stupid hat. Gideon Prewett, it took five
Death Eaters to kill him and his brother Fabian, they fought like heroes.
budge along, budge along.'
The little people in the photograph jostled among themselves and those
hidden right at the back appeared at the forefront of the picture.
That's Dumbledore's brother Aberforth, only time 1 ever met him, strange
bloke. that's Dorcas Meadowes, Voldemort killed her personally. Sirius, when
he still had short hair. and. there you go, thought that would interest
you!'

Toon

2008-09-11 14:29:52 UTC

On Wed, 10 Sep 2008 09:35:05 -0500, "Here in Minnesota!"

Post by Toon
On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 21:04:25 +0100, "DaveD"

Post by Toon
On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 23:08:44 +0100, "DaveD"

<snip>

Post by Toon
.... He didn't join the Order till after GOF.

Really?? Where did you dig that nugget up from??

When DD recruits them at the end, that isn't an of course you'll
rejoin request. Plus they had a bunch of young kids at the time, and
less likely to join and risk life and limb.

Post by Welsh Dog
I thought Arthur and
Molly were both in the order... especially given that Molly's brothers
had been killed by Voldie!!
Welshdog

Just because they were killed by him, doesn't mean they were
Phoneixes, nor does it mean the whole family was.

Arabelle Figg. As indicated end of GOF.

Post by Here in Minnesota!
Moody took a swig from his hipflask, his electric-blue eye staring sideways
at Harry.
'Come here, I've got something that might interest you,' he said.
From an inner pocket of his robes Moody pulled a very tattered old wizarding
photograph.
'Original Order of the Phoenix,' growled Moody. 'Found it last night when I
was looking for my spare Invisibility Cloak,

OK, why does he get two?

Post by Here in Minnesota!
seeing as Podmore hasn't had
the manners to return my best one.

Why loan out your bets one when you have a spare?

Post by Here in Minnesota!
Benjy Fenwick, he copped it too, we only ever found bits of him. shift aside
there,' he added, poking the picture, and the little photographic people
edged sideways, so that those who were partially obscured could move to the
front.

Still creepy.

Post by Here in Minnesota!
That's Edgar Bones. brother of Amelia Bones, they got him and his family,
too, he was a great wizard. Sturgis Podmore, blimey, he looks young. Caradoc
Dearborn, vanished six months after this, we never found his body. Hagrid,
of
course, looks exactly the same as ever. Elphias Doge, you've met him, I'd
forgotten he used to wear that stupid hat. Gideon Prewett, it took five
Death Eaters to kill him and his brother Fabian, they fought like heroes.

I'm betting they were a lot like Fred and George.

Post by Here in Minnesota!
bloke. that's Dorcas Meadowes, Voldemort killed her personally.

Wow, she must have been good.

DaveD

2008-09-13 17:08:59 UTC

Post by Toon
On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 21:04:25 +0100, "DaveD"

Post by Toon
On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 23:08:44 +0100, "DaveD"

<snip>

Post by Toon
.... He didn't join the Order till after GOF.

Really?? Where did you dig that nugget up from??

[snip]

Post by Here in Minnesota!
I too assumed that Arthur & Molly were Original Order of the Phoenix
Members; but I think these are the only one listed as being original
members...

[list of Order members and supporting quote]

Thanks for that. I'd completely forgotten that Moody gave a full listing
there! Which answers the question nicely :)

DaveD

Welsh Dog

2008-09-14 01:02:21 UTC

On Sat, 13 Sep 2008 18:08:59 +0100, "DaveD"

Post by Toon
On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 21:04:25 +0100, "DaveD"

Post by Toon
On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 23:08:44 +0100, "DaveD"

<snip>

Post by Toon
.... He didn't join the Order till after GOF.

Really?? Where did you dig that nugget up from??

[snip]

Post by Here in Minnesota!
I too assumed that Arthur & Molly were Original Order of the Phoenix
Members; but I think these are the only one listed as being original
members...

[list of Order members and supporting quote]
Thanks for that. I'd completely forgotten that Moody gave a full listing
there! Which answers the question nicely :)

Except he didn't need to mention Molly or Arthur...

Welshdog

--
News and views... for people like youse!!

Australian Opinion
(http://australianopinion.com)

Not as strange as it looks!

DaveD

2008-09-14 12:55:58 UTC

Post by Welsh Dog
On Sat, 13 Sep 2008 18:08:59 +0100, "DaveD"

Post by Toon
On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 21:04:25 +0100, "DaveD"

Post by Toon
On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 23:08:44 +0100, "DaveD"

<snip>

Post by Toon
.... He didn't join the Order till after GOF.

Really?? Where did you dig that nugget up from??

[snip]

Post by Here in Minnesota!
I too assumed that Arthur & Molly were Original Order of the Phoenix
Members; but I think these are the only one listed as being original
members...

[list of Order members and supporting quote]
Thanks for that. I'd completely forgotten that Moody gave a full listing
there! Which answers the question nicely :)

Except he didn't need to mention Molly or Arthur...
Welshdog

Given the Weasleys are some of the few adult wizards that Harry knows and
are also in the OotP now, and that Moody explains who all these others were,
I'd have expected him either to point them out in the picture or explain why
they weren't in it (eg they weren't members the first time around, or they
were doing something else when the picture was taken).

But that's all conjecture - guess we'll never know (unless there's some
little nugget about the OotP#1 buried somewhere in OotP onwards - I'll keep
an eye out for it.)

DaveD

Here in Minnesota!

2008-09-14 15:19:50 UTC

Post by Toon
.... He didn't join the Order till after GOF.

Really?? Where did you dig that nugget up from??

[snip]

Post by Here in Minnesota!
I too assumed that Arthur & Molly were Original Order of the Phoenix
Members; but I think these are the only one listed as being original
members...

[list of Order members and supporting quote]
Thanks for that. I'd completely forgotten that Moody gave a full listing
there! Which answers the question nicely :)

Except he didn't need to mention Molly or Arthur...
Welshdog

We will never know for sure...

***evidence given from the books that they were in the original order***

1. "There is work to be done," he said. "Molly... am I
right in thinking that I can count on you and Arthur?"

2 Molly's brothers had been killed by Voldie

***evidence given from the books that they were NOT in the original order***

1 They weren't in the picture and Moody said "'Original Order of the
Phoenix,'" [not some of the order]

1b the fact that Moody didn't mention Molly or Arthur [and Harry didn't ask]
would be evidence they weren't in the Order [you would have expected Moody
to say "Molly and Arthur weren't in the picture because they were on
assignment, kids were sick etc when it was taken]

2. About the time the Order began... either they would have 5 young kids
with 2 of them being babies, "evil twins" OR they would have 3 young kids
with Molly being pregnant with twins.

Steve Morrison

2008-09-14 15:32:11 UTC

Post by Toon
.... He didn't join the Order till after GOF.

Really?? Where did you dig that nugget up from??

[snip]

Post by Here in Minnesota!
I too assumed that Arthur & Molly were Original Order of the Phoenix
Members; but I think these are the only one listed as being original
members...

[list of Order members and supporting quote]
Thanks for that. I'd completely forgotten that Moody gave a full listing
there! Which answers the question nicely :)

Except he didn't need to mention Molly or Arthur...
Welshdog

We will never know for sure...
***evidence given from the books that they were in the original order***
1. "There is work to be done," he said. "Molly... am I
right in thinking that I can count on you and Arthur?"
2 Molly's brothers had been killed by Voldie
***evidence given from the books that they were NOT in the original order***
1 They weren't in the picture and Moody said "'Original Order of the
Phoenix,'" [not some of the order]
1b the fact that Moody didn't mention Molly or Arthur [and Harry didn't
ask] would be evidence they weren't in the Order [you would have
expected Moody to say "Molly and Arthur weren't in the picture because
they were on assignment, kids were sick etc when it was taken]
2. About the time the Order began... either they would have 5 young kids
with 2 of them being babies, "evil twins" OR they would have 3 young
kids with Molly being pregnant with twins.

Decisive evidence that Molly was not in the Order: Lupin said she wasn't
while comforting her after dismissing the Boggart in "The Woes of Mrs.
Weasley"; see my old post from last year

http://preview.tinyurl.com/566zux

Here in Minnesota!

2008-09-14 16:57:08 UTC

Post by Toon
.... He didn't join the Order till after GOF.

Really?? Where did you dig that nugget up from??

[snip]

Post by Here in Minnesota!
I too assumed that Arthur & Molly were Original Order of the Phoenix
Members; but I think these are the only one listed as being original
members...

[list of Order members and supporting quote]
Thanks for that. I'd completely forgotten that Moody gave a full listing
there! Which answers the question nicely :)

Except he didn't need to mention Molly or Arthur...
Welshdog

We will never know for sure...
***evidence given from the books that they were in the original order***
1. "There is work to be done," he said. "Molly... am I
right in thinking that I can count on you and Arthur?"
2 Molly's brothers had been killed by Voldie
***evidence given from the books that they were NOT in the original order***
1 They weren't in the picture and Moody said "'Original Order of the
Phoenix,'" [not some of the order]
1b the fact that Moody didn't mention Molly or Arthur [and Harry didn't
ask] would be evidence they weren't in the Order [you would have expected
Moody to say "Molly and Arthur weren't in the picture because they were
on assignment, kids were sick etc when it was taken]
2. About the time the Order began... either they would have 5 young kids
with 2 of them being babies, "evil twins" OR they would have 3 young kids
with Molly being pregnant with twins.

good note, wish I would have seen it sooner and saved some typing :)

the funny thing is that note from a year ago was to Welshdog!

Welsh Dog

2008-09-15 05:51:14 UTC

Post by Toon
.... He didn't join the Order till after GOF.

Really?? Where did you dig that nugget up from??

[snip]

Post by Here in Minnesota!
I too assumed that Arthur & Molly were Original Order of the Phoenix
Members; but I think these are the only one listed as being original
members...

[list of Order members and supporting quote]
Thanks for that. I'd completely forgotten that Moody gave a full listing
there! Which answers the question nicely :)

Except he didn't need to mention Molly or Arthur...
Welshdog

We will never know for sure...
***evidence given from the books that they were in the original order***
1. "There is work to be done," he said. "Molly... am I
right in thinking that I can count on you and Arthur?"
2 Molly's brothers had been killed by Voldie
***evidence given from the books that they were NOT in the original order***
1 They weren't in the picture and Moody said "'Original Order of the
Phoenix,'" [not some of the order]
1b the fact that Moody didn't mention Molly or Arthur [and Harry didn't
ask] would be evidence they weren't in the Order [you would have
expected Moody to say "Molly and Arthur weren't in the picture because
they were on assignment, kids were sick etc when it was taken]
2. About the time the Order began... either they would have 5 young kids
with 2 of them being babies, "evil twins" OR they would have 3 young
kids with Molly being pregnant with twins.

Seems conclusive! Nice find!! :)

What I found interesting was that I was discussing the same question
last year... and came down on the opposite side of the fence to this
time?? :D

Welshdog

--
News and views... for people like youse!!

Australian Opinion
(http://australianopinion.com)

Not as strange as it looks!

Toon

2008-09-15 14:06:20 UTC

Post by Steve Morrison
Decisive evidence that Molly was not in the Order: Lupin said she wasn't
while comforting her after dismissing the Boggart in "The Woes of Mrs.
Weasley"; see my old post from last year
http://preview.tinyurl.com/566zux

Seems conclusive! Nice find!! :)
What I found interesting was that I was discussing the same question
last year... and came down on the opposite side of the fence to this
time?? :D
Welshdog

Confudus Charm?

Welsh Dog

2008-09-15 21:12:33 UTC

Seems conclusive! Nice find!! :)
What I found interesting was that I was discussing the same question
last year... and came down on the opposite side of the fence to this
time?? :D

Confudus Charm?

Seems to work tho! :)

Welshdog

--
News and views... for people like youse!!

Australian Opinion
(http://australianopinion.com)

Not as strange as it looks!

Welsh Dog

2008-09-15 05:47:56 UTC

On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 10:19:50 -0500, "Here in Minnesota!"

Post by Toon
.... He didn't join the Order till after GOF.

Really?? Where did you dig that nugget up from??

[snip]

Post by Here in Minnesota!
I too assumed that Arthur & Molly were Original Order of the Phoenix
Members; but I think these are the only one listed as being original
members...

[list of Order members and supporting quote]
Thanks for that. I'd completely forgotten that Moody gave a full listing
there! Which answers the question nicely :)

Except he didn't need to mention Molly or Arthur...

We will never know for sure...
***evidence given from the books that they were in the original order***
1. "There is work to be done," he said. "Molly... am I
right in thinking that I can count on you and Arthur?"
2 Molly's brothers had been killed by Voldie
***evidence given from the books that they were NOT in the original order***
1 They weren't in the picture and Moody said "'Original Order of the
Phoenix,'" [not some of the order]
1b the fact that Moody didn't mention Molly or Arthur [and Harry didn't ask]
would be evidence they weren't in the Order [you would have expected Moody
to say "Molly and Arthur weren't in the picture because they were on
assignment, kids were sick etc when it was taken]
2. About the time the Order began... either they would have 5 young kids
with 2 of them being babies, "evil twins" OR they would have 3 young kids
with Molly being pregnant with twins.

I take it a 1 year old Harry didn't count as a baby?? Even tho his
parents were in the original order??

And where was Mundungus??

Welshdog

--
News and views... for people like youse!!

Australian Opinion
(http://australianopinion.com)

Not as strange as it looks!

Toon

2008-09-15 14:07:22 UTC

Post by Welsh Dog
On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 10:19:50 -0500, "Here in Minnesota!"

Post by Toon
.... He didn't join the Order till after GOF.

Really?? Where did you dig that nugget up from??

[snip]

Post by Here in Minnesota!
I too assumed that Arthur & Molly were Original Order of the Phoenix
Members; but I think these are the only one listed as being original
members...

[list of Order members and supporting quote]
Thanks for that. I'd completely forgotten that Moody gave a full listing
there! Which answers the question nicely :)

Except he didn't need to mention Molly or Arthur...

We will never know for sure...
***evidence given from the books that they were in the original order***
1. "There is work to be done," he said. "Molly... am I
right in thinking that I can count on you and Arthur?"
2 Molly's brothers had been killed by Voldie
***evidence given from the books that they were NOT in the original order***
1 They weren't in the picture and Moody said "'Original Order of the
Phoenix,'" [not some of the order]
1b the fact that Moody didn't mention Molly or Arthur [and Harry didn't ask]
would be evidence they weren't in the Order [you would have expected Moody
to say "Molly and Arthur weren't in the picture because they were on
assignment, kids were sick etc when it was taken]
2. About the time the Order began... either they would have 5 young kids
with 2 of them being babies, "evil twins" OR they would have 3 young kids
with Molly being pregnant with twins.

I take it a 1 year old Harry didn't count as a baby?? Even tho his
parents were in the original order??

Probably members before the conception.

Post by Welsh Dog
And where was Mundungus??

Jail probably.

Toon

2008-09-15 14:03:54 UTC

On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 10:19:50 -0500, "Here in Minnesota!"

Post by Toon
.... He didn't join the Order till after GOF.

Really?? Where did you dig that nugget up from??

[snip]

Post by Here in Minnesota!
I too assumed that Arthur & Molly were Original Order of the Phoenix
Members; but I think these are the only one listed as being original
members...

[list of Order members and supporting quote]
Thanks for that. I'd completely forgotten that Moody gave a full listing
there! Which answers the question nicely :)

Except he didn't need to mention Molly or Arthur...
Welshdog

Why is that evidence? Because she'd want revenge?

Here in Minnesota!

2008-09-15 19:04:14 UTC

Post by Welsh Dog
On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 10:19:50 -0500, "Here in Minnesota!"

Post by Toon
.... He didn't join the Order till after GOF.

Really?? Where did you dig that nugget up from??

[snip]

Post by Here in Minnesota!
I too assumed that Arthur & Molly were Original Order of the Phoenix
Members; but I think these are the only one listed as being original
members...

[list of Order members and supporting quote]
Thanks for that. I'd completely forgotten that Moody gave a full listing
there! Which answers the question nicely :)

Except he didn't need to mention Molly or Arthur...
Welshdog

Why is that evidence? Because she'd want revenge?

I agree it's not strong evidence but I didn't want to leave out any of the
arguments given.

Toon

2008-09-14 14:19:05 UTC

Post by Welsh Dog
On Sat, 13 Sep 2008 18:08:59 +0100, "DaveD"

Post by Toon
On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 21:04:25 +0100, "DaveD"

Post by Toon
On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 23:08:44 +0100, "DaveD"

<snip>

Post by Toon
.... He didn't join the Order till after GOF.

Really?? Where did you dig that nugget up from??

[snip]

Post by Here in Minnesota!
I too assumed that Arthur & Molly were Original Order of the Phoenix
Members; but I think these are the only one listed as being original
members...

[list of Order members and supporting quote]
Thanks for that. I'd completely forgotten that Moody gave a full listing
there! Which answers the question nicely :)

Except he didn't need to mention Molly or Arthur...
Welshdog

Why mention those not in the Order?

Welsh Dog

2008-09-15 05:40:29 UTC

Post by Welsh Dog
On Sat, 13 Sep 2008 18:08:59 +0100, "DaveD"

Post by Toon
On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 21:04:25 +0100, "DaveD"

Post by Toon
On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 23:08:44 +0100, "DaveD"

<snip>

Post by Toon
.... He didn't join the Order till after GOF.

Really?? Where did you dig that nugget up from??

[snip]

Post by Here in Minnesota!
I too assumed that Arthur & Molly were Original Order of the Phoenix
Members; but I think these are the only one listed as being original
members...

[list of Order members and supporting quote]
Thanks for that. I'd completely forgotten that Moody gave a full listing
there! Which answers the question nicely :)

Except he didn't need to mention Molly or Arthur...
Welshdog

Why mention those not in the Order?

To explain why they weren't in the picture!

Where was Mundungus by the way?? He seemed old enough to be in the
original order as well... ??

Welshdog

--
News and views... for people like youse!!

Australian Opinion
(http://australianopinion.com)

Not as strange as it looks!

Welsh Dog

2008-09-10 20:25:01 UTC

Post by Toon
On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 21:04:25 +0100, "DaveD"

Post by Toon
On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 23:08:44 +0100, "DaveD"

<snip>

Post by Toon
.... He didn't join the Order till after GOF.

Really?? Where did you dig that nugget up from??

When DD recruits them at the end, that isn't an of course you'll
rejoin request. Plus they had a bunch of young kids at the time, and
less likely to join and risk life and limb.

The request was:

"There is work to be done," he said. "Molly... am I
right in thinking that I can count on you and Arthur?"

This doesn't suggest "Would you like to join a Secret Order I set up
to fight Voldemort...

... this suggests "We're getting the Order back are you in?"

Post by Welsh Dog
I thought Arthur and
Molly were both in the order... especially given that Molly's brothers
had been killed by Voldie!!

Just because they were killed by him, doesn't mean they were
Phoneixes, nor does it mean the whole family was.

There's a fair chance it *did* though and I think it's clear both
"were" in the order. Besides... James and Lily had a young family and
*they* were in the order... which is why we have a series of books to
dissect! :)

Welshdog

--
News and views... for people like youse!!

Australian Opinion
(http://australianopinion.com)

Not as strange as it looks!

Here in Minnesota!

2008-09-10 22:11:03 UTC

Post by Welsh Dog
<snip>

Post by Toon
.... He didn't join the Order till after GOF.

Really?? Where did you dig that nugget up from??

When DD recruits them at the end, that isn't an of course you'll
rejoin request. Plus they had a bunch of young kids at the time, and
less likely to join and risk life and limb.

"There is work to be done," he said. "Molly... am I
right in thinking that I can count on you and Arthur?"
This doesn't suggest "Would you like to join a Secret Order I set up
to fight Voldemort...
... this suggests "We're getting the Order back are you in?"

This is where I assumed that the Weasleys were in the order... but if we are
going to dissect words... Moody growled "'Original Order of the Phoenix,'"
when he showed the pictured to Harry [he didn't say here's a picture of some
of the OOTP].

Post by Welsh Dog
I thought Arthur and
Molly were both in the order... especially given that Molly's brothers
had been killed by Voldie!!

Just because they were killed by him, doesn't mean they were
Phoneixes, nor does it mean the whole family was.

If you look at the timeline we realize that during LV reign it was the
Weaslys who were a young couple with young children...

1970 LV started his reign about 1970

1970 Bill W born

1971 James Potter, Lily Evans, Sirius Black, Remus Lupin, Peter Pettigrew,
and Severus Snape started school

1972 Charlie W born

1976 Percy W born

1978 Fred and George Weasley born

1978 - 1979 James Potter and Lily Evans married

1980 Harry Potter Born

1981 harry and LV first fight

We don't know when the first OOTP was formed but for example let's take
early summer 1978...

Arthur and Molly at that time would have 5 kids where 2 would be new born
twins.

Lilly and James would be freshly graduated, without kids, maybe married and
having their 3 best freinds join the order.

It does make sense that Arthur and Molley may not be in the first Order.

Toon

2008-09-11 14:32:21 UTC

Post by Toon
On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 21:04:25 +0100, "DaveD"

Post by Toon
On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 23:08:44 +0100, "DaveD"

<snip>

Post by Toon
.... He didn't join the Order till after GOF.

Really?? Where did you dig that nugget up from??

When DD recruits them at the end, that isn't an of course you'll
rejoin request. Plus they had a bunch of young kids at the time, and
less likely to join and risk life and limb.

Nah, that'd be, can I still count on you. That was a quick
recruitment. Because this time, they have a big family to protect and
secure the future for. And the youngest is 13, a woman by Jewish
standards.

Post by Welsh Dog
I thought Arthur and
Molly were both in the order... especially given that Molly's brothers
had been killed by Voldie!!

Just because they were killed by him, doesn't mean they were
Phoneixes, nor does it mean the whole family was.

I think they joined earlier than Harry's conception.

t***@gmail.com

2016-10-02 23:15:19 UTC