Post by Fish Eye no MikoPost by scenario_davePost by Fish Eye no MikoPost by Fish Eye no MikoActually, in "The Prince's Tale", Snape and Lily discuss
the fact that it is. Lily's afraid of being sent to Azkaban,
but Snape assures her that people don't get sent to
Azkaban for that.
In an interview, Jo said that Lily DID get warnings about
using magic while under age.
There's always how the law is written and how it is enforced.
That's pretty much the case with any law.
Exactly my point.
Well, no. Harry wasn't put on trial for any of the reasons you stated
as usually being factors.
My reason for using Harry's trial as an example is that it shows that
the MoM will enforce laws for reasons other than the person broke the
law. Politics frequently influences who is caught and who is put on
trial. Harry was put on trial for political reasons.
Post by Fish Eye no MikoPost by scenario_daveThe MoM showed uneven enforcement several times.
Yes. What has any of this to do with Lily Evans?
She was given a letter. She did break the law but she still
graduated. As I recall she was not rich and James was but I we don't
know if James also got a letter.
Lilly had more reason to worry than Snape did. (see below)
Post by Fish Eye no MikoPost by scenario_davePost by Fish Eye no MikoA rich kid doing magic at home with his parents watching
has almost no chance of being punished.
And your proof of that is...?
No proof but the reaction of everyone to Harry's trial.
What does that have to do with wealth? Harry's money or lack thereof
was NOT a factor in his trial at all.
Harry's trial was strictly political. This demonstrates that at least
some times, laws are used for political reasons. The Malfoys show
that money can buy you out of trouble.
Post by Fish Eye no MikoPost by scenario_davePlus the MoM does not appear to be the most efficient
operation around. I doubt that they'd be able to distinguish
who did the magic.
Except in Muggle-born houses.
Agreed, that's why I said that Harry and Hermione would be the most
likely people to be charged with breaking the law. Ron would be less
likely mostly because it would be more difficult to prove. If you add
in a wizard family with a lot of money and political pull, it would be
even less likely that they would be punished. The money is just one
of the factors, probably not the most important but it is a factor.
Post by Fish Eye no MikoPost by scenario_davePlus, politics. Kids being kids, I'm sure most of them have
tried out spells when they weren't susposed to. If the MoM
arrested every kid who preformed underaged magic, they'd
be voted out of office. I'm sure that they would ignore a
minor infraction done in the home of a good wizard family
but come down hard on a kid who lived with Muggles.
Which has nothing to do with wealth. It has to do with the fact that
they can't tell who does magic in a household. So the only time they
really can if a kid does underage magic is if they actually see it, or
if it's in a house with no magical persons except for the kids.
Wealth just makes it less likely to be punished. It doesn't prevent
it if some kid did something really stupid and dangerous in front of
witnesses. Put it this way, if Hermione, Ron and Draco each preformed
magic (not especially dangerous magic) in front of several witches
and muggles, which one would be most and which one least likely to be
severly punished? I think that it is kinda naive to think that the
Malfoy wealth and connections would not help Draco avoid or minimize
punishment.
Post by Fish Eye no MikoPost by scenario_daveEven though I don't believe most wizards hate muggles,
I'm sure they don't want them to know any more about
the magical world than necessary.
Uh.. duh.
Post by scenario_daveMoney is a factor. The Malfoy's were known death eaters and
they were known to have dark objects in their house, yet they
still had a lot of pull at the MoM. So they would almost
certainly not be punished for such a minor crime as Draco
trying to do a minor spell in their home during the summer.
Again, how would the MoM even be able to tell?
What if he did it at a birthday party in front of 100 witnesses and
bragged about it to everyone who would listen? If Hermione, Ron and
Draco all did the same thing, which would be most likely to get away
with it? (Assuming that all of them did the magic in front of only
Wizards)
Post by Fish Eye no MikoPost by scenario_daveRon family has four children and two adults plus frequent visitors
in the house. The Weasleys appear to be a respectable family.
I'd doubt that anyone would bother to try to arrest Ron, unless
they wanted to get him because he's Harry's friend.
Uh.. so where does money come in? You say it's a factor, yet the
Weasleys are poor and you're saying Ron wouldn't get into any more
trouble than the wealthy Draco. Where's the money part?
Just percentages. Ron's in the middle. Draco is least likely to be
punished because he lives in a wizard houshold and he is rich and has
connections. Hermione and Harry would be most likely because they
live with muggles and do not have the political connections that come
with being rich. Ron is in the middle because he is living in a wizard
household but doesn't have the political connections to help him if he
did happen to get caught.
Post by Fish Eye no MikoPost by scenario_daveIf one of them was going to be arrested, I'd bet on Ron
over Draco (in the early books time frame).
You just said he wouldn't be... WTF?
Do you even understand the argument you're trying to make?
I said that I doubt that either one would be arrested but if only one
of the two were arrested it would be more likely to be Ron than Draco.
That is not a contradiction. It's like Hermione has a 90% chance of
getting caught and punished, Ron a 10% chance and Draco a 5% chance.
Neither Ron nor Draco are likely to get caught and punished but if
only one of them is, its more likely to be Ron.
There are two factors, magical family and wealth. Both help. The
magical family is more important but all things being equal, the rich
magical family has an advantage over a poor magical family since they
would be more likely to have political connections.
Post by Fish Eye no MikoPost by scenario_davePost by Fish Eye no MikoThe richer you are or better connected you are, the
less you have to worry a bout a letter.
Again, where is this stated or implied in the books?
The Malfoy's got away with a lot of dark magic stuff.
Wow, that is SO not the point. We're talking about under-aged magic.
And you seem to forget that in the second book, Lucius' house was
raided by the MoM, he even sold off stuff for fear that the MoM would
find it. So... not so much..
Underage magic is a law. If there is sporatic enforcement of one law
there is likely to be sporatic enforcement of another. As I recall,
the Malfoys knew that they were likely to be raided. If they're told
in advance that's not much of a raid. If someone told them in advance,
money obviously helped them escape justice. I don't see why it
wouldn't help Draco as well.
Post by Fish Eye no MikoPost by scenario_daveThe MoM very much seems like an organization where who
you know is more important than what you know.
And, again, that's the same with any organization, even governments.
But you're not addressing the subject at hand very well.
The orginal subject was why didn't Lilly get punished and JKR stated
that she did get a letter.
Since Lilly lived with muggles during summer she would be likely to
get caught if she performed underaged magic. She would also be likely
to be punished because she had no political pull and because she
performed the magic in front of muggles.
Snape would be less likely to be caught because he lives with his
magical mother. If he was caught he would have an advantage over
Lilly because it wouldn't be in front of muggles but he would probably
still get a letter.
Draco Malfoy (of that year) would be about as likely to get caught as
Snape. If he was caught the would have the same advantage over Lilly
because it wouldn't be in front of muggles. He would have an
advantage over Snape because he father might be able to pull enough
strings to get him off.
My main point is that Lilly was right to worry because she was one of
the most likely people in school to get caught and she was also one of
the most likely people to get punished if caught. Snape could afford
to tell her not to worry about it since he was a lot less likely to
get caught than her, but if he did get caught doing magic in front of
muggles, he would probably be punished as much as her because his
family doesn't have a lot of money or political pull.
Post by Fish Eye no MikoPost by scenario_davePost by Fish Eye no MikoSmapes mother was probably pretty poor and he wasn't
well liked so
Ok, what does THAT have to do with anything?
Besides, I'm not convinced he was "not well-liked". He had
friends at school, was well respected among his peers at
Hogwarts and was among one of V's most trusted DE's (even
when he was actually working against him). Compare that to
ONE statement that he wasn't well liked, and I think that bit
of info is rather suspect.
Ok, that was much more speculitive than the other claims. Plus, how
well liked a child is doesn't have much affect.
Actually, you DID say it was a factor...
Getting punished in school it could be a factor. Getting punished by
the MoM it would be much less of a factor.
Post by Fish Eye no Miko"Smapes [sic] mother was probably pretty poor and he wasn't well liked
so he had to worry more than most about a letter."
Now, why bring up the possibility that he wasn't well-liked if you
DON'T think it's a factor?
Agreed. I don't thnk it is a major factor unless he was a multiple
offender or really really obnoxious, it wouldn't have much effect on
the MoM but it could have an effect on in school punishments. I
brought it up because it was one of many factors that could affect a
decision. If a MoM official looks at two kids one from a good family
who dresses well and is always polite and the other from a poor family
who dresses badly and is very rude besides, he would be more likely
to punish the second kid. I dropped that point after my original
post because I realized that you were correct that it was really a
minor factor when dealing with the MoM.
Post by Fish Eye no MikoPost by scenario_daveHowever, he would not have had as much pull as someone
like the Malfoys. If someone didn't like him, he didn't
have as much defence.
Read my comment about about magical households.
Post by scenario_daveFor example, He gets on the wrong side of his years
Draco Malfoy. He preforms illegal magic. If the equililent
of Mr. Malfoy twists the Headmasters arm, he's in a lot
of trouble.
Headmaster? I thought we were talking about under-aged magic at home?
I ask again: Do YOU even know what your argument is?
Multitasking and bad editing can be a bad thing. I meant to say MoM.
But in a school situation, personality may have an effect. Outside
the school, magical situation and influence are much more important.
Post by Fish Eye no MikoPost by scenario_davePost by Fish Eye no Mikohe had to worry more than most about a letter.
No. His mum was a witch. If magic happened in his
house, the MoM had know way of knowing i it was he
who did it.
The MoM is very political. There are a lot of examples of people
being in power because of their connections rather than talent,
No shit. It's irrelevant, though.
Again, read my comment about magical homes.
It is relevent. Different people are treated different ways because
of politics. Lilly had more to worry about than Snape because she
lived with Muggles. She would have even more to worry about than a
kid with magical parents with a lot of political pull.
Post by Fish Eye no Miko<snip>
Post by scenario_daveThe underage magic law appears to be a relatively minor law
and in a political environment, minor laws are frequently
selectively enforced.
Oh, more than MINOR laws are selectively enforced...
Agreed, but especially minor laws, it's a lot easier to let someone go
who ran a red light than someone who killed three people in cold
blood, although it does happen.
Post by Fish Eye no MikoCatherine Johnson.- Hide quoted text -
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