Discussion:
Fred, George, Peter and the Marauders' Map
(too old to reply)
andrea baker
2003-12-29 02:01:13 UTC
Permalink
Why was it that in the 2 years prior to the Prisoner of Azkaban,
neither Fred nor George ever noticed someone named Peter Pettigrew
following their brother around, when they viewed the Marauders' Map?

-Andrea Baker
DM
2003-12-29 02:08:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by andrea baker
Why was it that in the 2 years prior to the Prisoner of Azkaban,
neither Fred nor George ever noticed someone named Peter Pettigrew
following their brother around, when they viewed the Marauders' Map?
-Andrea Baker
Well, that was explained in GoF when the Weasley brothers expressed
their past concerns that Ron had renamed Scabbers, "Peter". This was
right before Harry's run-in with the rapid Unicorn and just after
Neville killed the leprechaun.
--
DM
--

,_,
(O,O)
( )
-"-"-

--
"RUN, SCABBERS, RUN!" - Jenny LeStrange
"My momma always told me, Evil is as Evil does..." - Voldemort Gump

HPCode(v1.1) S PS++COS++POA+++*GOF+++OOTP+++FF= QA
CH+++DD+++HB-HM+*PO+++TR+AR++CM++
HP/He-RW/Ch-CC/Mn-FW/GW/Ol-NL/Fl-SS/Um-VK/Ka
Toon
2003-12-29 08:09:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by DM
Post by andrea baker
Why was it that in the 2 years prior to the Prisoner of Azkaban,
neither Fred nor George ever noticed someone named Peter Pettigrew
following their brother around, when they viewed the Marauders' Map?
-Andrea Baker
Well, that was explained in GoF when the Weasley brothers expressed
their past concerns that Ron had renamed Scabbers, "Peter". This was
right before Harry's run-in with the rapid Unicorn and just after
Neville killed the leprechaun.
--
DM
--
Hey! We all agreed never to mention Neville's being tricked into
killing the leprechaun.
DM
2003-12-29 10:35:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toon
Post by DM
Post by andrea baker
Why was it that in the 2 years prior to the Prisoner of Azkaban,
neither Fred nor George ever noticed someone named Peter Pettigrew
following their brother around, when they viewed the Marauders' Map?
-Andrea Baker
Well, that was explained in GoF when the Weasley brothers expressed
their past concerns that Ron had renamed Scabbers, "Peter". This was
right before Harry's run-in with the rapid Unicorn and just after
Neville killed the leprechaun.
--
DM
--
Hey! We all agreed never to mention Neville's being tricked into
killing the leprechaun.
So sorry. I got carried away. (I'm surprised you didn't mention the fast
unicorn!)
--
DM
--

,_,
(O,O)
( )
-"-"-

--
"RUN, SCABBERS, RUN!" - Jenny LeStrange
"My momma always told me, Evil is as Evil does..." - Voldemort Gump

HPCode(v1.1) S PS++COS++POA+++*GOF+++OOTP+++FF= QA
CH+++DD+++HB-HM+*PO+++TR+AR++CM++
HP/He-RW/Ch-CC/Mn-FW/GW/Ol-NL/Fl-SS/Um-VK/Ka
deb
2003-12-29 17:56:26 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by DM
Post by Toon
Post by DM
Well, that was explained in GoF when the Weasley brothers expressed
their past concerns that Ron had renamed Scabbers, "Peter". This was
right before Harry's run-in with the rapid Unicorn and just after
Neville killed the leprechaun.
--
DM
--
Hey! We all agreed never to mention Neville's being tricked into
killing the leprechaun.
So sorry. I got carried away. (I'm surprised you didn't mention the fast
unicorn!)
--
DM
--
Hi y'all - I'm kinda new around here, but ... this is a joke right?
Neville WOULDN'T kill a leprechaun - although Artemius (Fowl) might! ;-)

and I ... err ... don't remember a "fast unicorn" in my version of HP
either.

The original question was a good one though - never occurred to me why they
didn't notice.
--
deb
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
... once again, road-runner leaves coyote in the dust ...
DM
2003-12-29 19:07:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by deb
<snip>
Post by DM
Post by Toon
Post by DM
Well, that was explained in GoF when the Weasley brothers expressed
their past concerns that Ron had renamed Scabbers, "Peter". This was
right before Harry's run-in with the rapid Unicorn and just after
Neville killed the leprechaun.
--
DM
--
Hey! We all agreed never to mention Neville's being tricked into
killing the leprechaun.
So sorry. I got carried away. (I'm surprised you didn't mention the fast
unicorn!)
--
DM
--
Hi y'all - I'm kinda new around here, but ... this is a joke right?
Neville WOULDN'T kill a leprechaun - although Artemius (Fowl) might! ;-)
and I ... err ... don't remember a "fast unicorn" in my version of HP
either.
The original question was a good one though - never occurred to me why they
didn't notice.
--
deb
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
... once again, road-runner leaves coyote in the dust ...
It's in the adult version of Harry Potter. The characters are quite different,
Neville seems overly violent and vindictive, IMO.
--
DM
--

,_,
(O,O)
( )
-"-"-

--
"RUN, SCABBERS, RUN!" - Jenny LeStrange
"My momma always told me, Evil is as Evil does..." - Voldemort Gump

HPCode(v1.1) S PS++COS++POA+++*GOF+++OOTP+++FF= QA
CH+++DD+++HB-HM+*PO+++TR+AR++CM++ HP/He-RW/Ch-CC/Mn-FW/GW/Ol-NL/Fl-SS/Um-VK/Ka
blackrose
2003-12-29 20:22:18 UTC
Permalink
With regard to Neville & the Unicorn I think you've brought your own fan
fiction here as that is sooooo not in the books!
--
sleep2dream
================================
www.interrupted.net
www.dreamsunderyourfeet.com
===============================
Post by DM
Post by deb
<snip>
Post by DM
Post by Toon
Post by DM
Well, that was explained in GoF when the Weasley brothers expressed
their past concerns that Ron had renamed Scabbers, "Peter". This was
right before Harry's run-in with the rapid Unicorn and just after
Neville killed the leprechaun.
--
DM
--
Hey! We all agreed never to mention Neville's being tricked into
killing the leprechaun.
So sorry. I got carried away. (I'm surprised you didn't mention the fast
unicorn!)
--
DM
--
Hi y'all - I'm kinda new around here, but ... this is a joke right?
Neville WOULDN'T kill a leprechaun - although Artemius (Fowl) might!
;-)
Post by DM
Post by deb
and I ... err ... don't remember a "fast unicorn" in my version of HP
either.
The original question was a good one though - never occurred to me why they
didn't notice.
--
deb
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
... once again, road-runner leaves coyote in the dust ...
It's in the adult version of Harry Potter. The characters are quite different,
Neville seems overly violent and vindictive, IMO.
--
DM
--
,_,
(O,O)
( )
-"-"-
--
"RUN, SCABBERS, RUN!" - Jenny LeStrange
"My momma always told me, Evil is as Evil does..." - Voldemort Gump
HPCode(v1.1) S PS++COS++POA+++*GOF+++OOTP+++FF= QA
CH+++DD+++HB-HM+*PO+++TR+AR++CM++
HP/He-RW/Ch-CC/Mn-FW/GW/Ol-NL/Fl-SS/Um-VK/Ka
Toon
2003-12-30 08:53:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by DM
Post by deb
<snip>
Post by DM
Post by Toon
Post by DM
Well, that was explained in GoF when the Weasley brothers expressed
their past concerns that Ron had renamed Scabbers, "Peter". This was
right before Harry's run-in with the rapid Unicorn and just after
Neville killed the leprechaun.
--
DM
--
Hey! We all agreed never to mention Neville's being tricked into
killing the leprechaun.
So sorry. I got carried away. (I'm surprised you didn't mention the fast
unicorn!)
--
DM
--
Hi y'all - I'm kinda new around here, but ... this is a joke right?
Neville WOULDN'T kill a leprechaun - although Artemius (Fowl) might! ;-)
and I ... err ... don't remember a "fast unicorn" in my version of HP
either.
The original question was a good one though - never occurred to me why they
didn't notice.
--
deb
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
... once again, road-runner leaves coyote in the dust ...
It's in the adult version of Harry Potter. The characters are quite different,
Neville seems overly violent and vindictive, IMO.
--
You'd be too if your crazy Uncle told a bunch of Death eaters where to
find your parents. Then went into hiding as a magical creature.
Sirius Kase
2003-12-30 14:27:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toon
Post by DM
Post by deb
<snip>
Post by DM
Post by Toon
Post by DM
Well, that was explained in GoF when the Weasley brothers expressed
their past concerns that Ron had renamed Scabbers, "Peter". This was
right before Harry's run-in with the rapid Unicorn and just after
Neville killed the leprechaun.
--
DM
--
Hey! We all agreed never to mention Neville's being tricked into
killing the leprechaun.
So sorry. I got carried away. (I'm surprised you didn't mention the fast
unicorn!)
--
DM
--
Hi y'all - I'm kinda new around here, but ... this is a joke right?
Neville WOULDN'T kill a leprechaun - although Artemius (Fowl) might! ;-)
and I ... err ... don't remember a "fast unicorn" in my version of HP
either.
The original question was a good one though - never occurred to me why they
didn't notice.
--
deb
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
... once again, road-runner leaves coyote in the dust ...
It's in the adult version of Harry Potter. The characters are quite different,
Neville seems overly violent and vindictive, IMO.
--
You'd be too if your crazy Uncle told a bunch of Death eaters where to
find your parents. Then went into hiding as a magical creature.
Yes, that's why you only learn the whole story about Aberfort'hs Goat in
the adult edition.
--
Sirius Kase

"Drat!" exclaimed Voldemort, "beaten by a pair of deuces." SteveK of a.f.h-p
Sirius Kase
2003-12-30 14:28:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toon
Post by DM
Post by deb
<snip>
Post by DM
Post by Toon
Post by DM
Well, that was explained in GoF when the Weasley brothers expressed
their past concerns that Ron had renamed Scabbers, "Peter". This was
right before Harry's run-in with the rapid Unicorn and just after
Neville killed the leprechaun.
--
DM
--
Hey! We all agreed never to mention Neville's being tricked into
killing the leprechaun.
So sorry. I got carried away. (I'm surprised you didn't mention the fast
unicorn!)
--
DM
--
Hi y'all - I'm kinda new around here, but ... this is a joke right?
Neville WOULDN'T kill a leprechaun - although Artemius (Fowl) might! ;-)
and I ... err ... don't remember a "fast unicorn" in my version of HP
either.
The original question was a good one though - never occurred to me why they
didn't notice.
--
deb
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
... once again, road-runner leaves coyote in the dust ...
It's in the adult version of Harry Potter. The characters are quite different,
Neville seems overly violent and vindictive, IMO.
--
You'd be too if your crazy Uncle told a bunch of Death eaters where to
find your parents. Then went into hiding as a magical creature.
Whoops, make that Aberforths Unicorn, that's one h**** goat.
--
Sirius Kase

"Drat!" exclaimed Voldemort, "beaten by a pair of deuces." SteveK of a.f.h-p
Toon
2003-12-31 08:52:58 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 14:28:14 GMT, Sirius Kase
Post by Sirius Kase
Post by Toon
--
You'd be too if your crazy Uncle told a bunch of Death eaters where to
find your parents. Then went into hiding as a magical creature.
Whoops, make that Aberforths Unicorn, that's one h**** goat.
Ah OK. I was wondering why you were on about goats.
deb
2003-12-31 14:48:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toon
Post by DM
Post by deb
<snip>
Post by DM
Post by Toon
Post by DM
Well, that was explained in GoF when the Weasley brothers expressed
their past concerns that Ron had renamed Scabbers, "Peter". This was
right before Harry's run-in with the rapid Unicorn and just after
Neville killed the leprechaun.
--
DM
--
Hey! We all agreed never to mention Neville's being tricked into
killing the leprechaun.
So sorry. I got carried away. (I'm surprised you didn't mention the fast
unicorn!)
--
DM
--
Hi y'all - I'm kinda new around here, but ... this is a joke right?
Neville WOULDN'T kill a leprechaun - although Artemius (Fowl) might!
;-)
Post by Toon
Post by DM
Post by deb
and I ... err ... don't remember a "fast unicorn" in my version of HP
either.
The original question was a good one though - never occurred to me why they
didn't notice.
--
deb
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
... once again, road-runner leaves coyote in the dust ...
It's in the adult version of Harry Potter. The characters are quite different,
Neville seems overly violent and vindictive, IMO.
--
You'd be too if your crazy Uncle told a bunch of Death eaters where to
find your parents. Then went into hiding as a magical creature.
OK - I'll bite - where can I find the "adult version". (I AM an adult!)
tia
--
deb
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
... once again, road-runner leaves coyote in the dust ...
Kish
2003-12-31 19:14:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by deb
OK - I'll bite - where can I find the "adult version". (I AM an adult!)
tia
They're joking, Deb. There is an adult edition of each book, but the
only difference is the cover.
deb
2003-12-31 19:34:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kish
Post by deb
OK - I'll bite - where can I find the "adult version". (I AM an adult!)
tia
They're joking, Deb. There is an adult edition of each book, but the
only difference is the cover.
Bummer! I wanted to read about the fast unicorn. ;-p


--
deb
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
... once again, road-runner leaves coyote in the dust ...
Toon
2004-01-01 08:36:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by deb
Post by Kish
Post by deb
OK - I'll bite - where can I find the "adult version". (I AM an adult!)
tia
They're joking, Deb. There is an adult edition of each book, but the
only difference is the cover.
Bummer! I wanted to read about the fast unicorn. ;-p
Trust me, his girlfriend is not thrilled with his title.
Sirius Kase
2003-12-30 01:25:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toon
Post by DM
Post by andrea baker
Why was it that in the 2 years prior to the Prisoner of Azkaban,
neither Fred nor George ever noticed someone named Peter Pettigrew
following their brother around, when they viewed the Marauders' Map?
-Andrea Baker
Well, that was explained in GoF when the Weasley brothers expressed
their past concerns that Ron had renamed Scabbers, "Peter". This was
right before Harry's run-in with the rapid Unicorn and just after
Neville killed the leprechaun.
--
DM
--
Hey! We all agreed never to mention Neville's being tricked into
killing the leprechaun.
Neville ISN'T a killer. I refuse to believe that Warwick is dead. The
whole subplot exists simply to distract us from what is really going on.
--
Sirius Kase

"Drat!" exclaimed Voldemort, "beaten by a pair of deuces." SteveK of a.f.h-p
Toon
2003-12-29 08:09:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by andrea baker
Why was it that in the 2 years prior to the Prisoner of Azkaban,
neither Fred nor George ever noticed someone named Peter Pettigrew
following their brother around, when they viewed the Marauders' Map?
-Andrea Baker
WHo said they didn't see his name? who says they ever looked for
Percy?
rainbow
2003-12-29 12:50:59 UTC
Permalink
NewsGroups : Hello/Bonjour andrea baker , tu nous a dit / you told us
Post by andrea baker
Why was it that in the 2 years prior to the Prisoner of Azkaban,
neither Fred nor George ever noticed someone named Peter Pettigrew
following their brother around, when they viewed the Marauders' Map?
-Andrea Baker
They were probably not looking for Ron...
--
Corinne
pour m'écrire/to write me
rainbow21 server : netcourrier.com
Ard Rhi
2003-12-29 23:47:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by andrea baker
Why was it that in the 2 years prior to the Prisoner of Azkaban,
neither Fred nor George ever noticed someone named Peter Pettigrew
following their brother around, when they viewed the Marauders' Map?
-Andrea Baker
The obvious answer is likely the most true.

Fred and George had been using the Marauder's map for two years prior to
Ron's entrance. They themselves claimed to have memorized it when they gave
it to Harry.

Even if they used it while Ron was in school with them, not only did Ron
sometimes leave Scabbers behind (thus Scabbers didn't always follow him),
the odds of them directly looking for Ron are minimal. They used the map to
avoid professors, Filch, Mrs. Norris, and a couple of others. Even if they
looked for Ron, what are the odds of them remembering the name Peter
Pettigrew or linking it to anything other than a friend of Ron's that he was
travelling with?

Ard Rhi
Sirius Kase
2003-12-30 01:23:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ard Rhi
Post by andrea baker
Why was it that in the 2 years prior to the Prisoner of Azkaban,
neither Fred nor George ever noticed someone named Peter Pettigrew
following their brother around, when they viewed the Marauders' Map?
-Andrea Baker
The obvious answer is likely the most true.
Fred and George had been using the Marauder's map for two years prior to
Ron's entrance. They themselves claimed to have memorized it when they gave
it to Harry.
Even if they used it while Ron was in school with them, not only did Ron
sometimes leave Scabbers behind (thus Scabbers didn't always follow him),
the odds of them directly looking for Ron are minimal. They used the map to
avoid professors, Filch, Mrs. Norris, and a couple of others. Even if they
looked for Ron, what are the odds of them remembering the name Peter
Pettigrew or linking it to anything other than a friend of Ron's that he was
travelling with?
Ard Rhi
And if you grant the map some intelligence, it only shows the user what
he needs to know at the time. That's why Harry only sees himself after
Fred and George give him the map. F&G never needed to see Ron or
Scabbers. They may have needed to see Percy when he was Scabber's
master, but even then, they didn't need to see Scabbers.
--
Sirius Kase

"Drat!" exclaimed Voldemort, "beaten by a pair of deuces." SteveK of a.f.h-p
Timothy Bruening
2016-08-01 12:02:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sirius Kase
Post by Ard Rhi
Post by andrea baker
Why was it that in the 2 years prior to the Prisoner of Azkaban,
neither Fred nor George ever noticed someone named Peter Pettigrew
following their brother around, when they viewed the Marauders' Map?
-Andrea Baker
The obvious answer is likely the most true.
Fred and George had been using the Marauder's map for two years prior to
Ron's entrance. They themselves claimed to have memorized it when they gave
it to Harry.
Even if they used it while Ron was in school with them, not only did Ron
sometimes leave Scabbers behind (thus Scabbers didn't always follow him),
the odds of them directly looking for Ron are minimal. They used the map to
avoid professors, Filch, Mrs. Norris, and a couple of others. Even if they
looked for Ron, what are the odds of them remembering the name Peter
Pettigrew or linking it to anything other than a friend of Ron's that he was
travelling with?
Ard Rhi
And if you grant the map some intelligence, it only shows the user what
he needs to know at the time. That's why Harry only sees himself after
Fred and George give him the map. F&G never needed to see Ron or
Scabbers. They may have needed to see Percy when he was Scabber's
master, but even then, they didn't need to see Scabbers.
At one point, the Map DID show Harry Peter. Why did the Map decide to show Peter that one time?
Timothy Bruening
2016-08-01 12:00:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ard Rhi
Post by andrea baker
Why was it that in the 2 years prior to the Prisoner of Azkaban,
neither Fred nor George ever noticed someone named Peter Pettigrew
following their brother around, when they viewed the Marauders' Map?
-Andrea Baker
The obvious answer is likely the most true.
Fred and George had been using the Marauder's map for two years prior to
Ron's entrance. They themselves claimed to have memorized it when they gave
it to Harry.
Even if they used it while Ron was in school with them, not only did Ron
sometimes leave Scabbers behind (thus Scabbers didn't always follow him),
the odds of them directly looking for Ron are minimal. They used the map to
avoid professors, Filch, Mrs. Norris, and a couple of others. Even if they
looked for Ron, what are the odds of them remembering the name Peter
Pettigrew or linking it to anything other than a friend of Ron's that he was
travelling with?
I would have expected Fred and George to quite naturally check up on Ron, since he's their BROTHER!

Wouldn't they have learned about Peter Pettigrew in their history classes? Wouldn't they have learned about Peter when Sirius Black's rampage began, and the teachers told everyone WHY Sirius Black had to be recaptured?
Keven K Pinder
2003-12-30 04:19:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by andrea baker
Why was it that in the 2 years prior to the Prisoner of Azkaban,
neither Fred nor George ever noticed someone named Peter Pettigrew
following their brother around, when they viewed the Marauders' Map?
-Andrea Baker
Crackin' good question! I suppose the obvious gloss over would be that
there must be hundreds of names wandering over the map. They didn't use it
to track Ron. When they looked at the map they were looking for Snape,
Norris, Filch and whoever was near their current position. Odds are
Pettigrew just got lost in the noise.
Sheila J
2003-12-30 04:30:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keven K Pinder
Post by andrea baker
Why was it that in the 2 years prior to the Prisoner of Azkaban,
neither Fred nor George ever noticed someone named Peter Pettigrew
following their brother around, when they viewed the Marauders' Map?
-Andrea Baker
Crackin' good question! I suppose the obvious gloss over would be that
there must be hundreds of names wandering over the map. They didn't use it
to track Ron. When they looked at the map they were looking for Snape,
Norris, Filch and whoever was near their current position. Odds are
Pettigrew just got lost in the noise.
How exactly did that map work, by the way. How would hundreds of
names fit on the map?
Did they have to ask for someone, sort of like a ' I would like to see
Snape'...or did it just look like a bunch of moving dots? I would have
thought that would have been terribly confusing and a bit mind numbing...

Just a thought,
Cheers,
Sheila
--
Also say to them, that they suffre hym this day to wynne his spurres,
for if God be pleased, I woll this journey be his, and the honoure thereof.
Edward III, at some point...
Toon
2003-12-30 08:49:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sheila J
Post by Keven K Pinder
Post by andrea baker
Why was it that in the 2 years prior to the Prisoner of Azkaban,
neither Fred nor George ever noticed someone named Peter Pettigrew
following their brother around, when they viewed the Marauders' Map?
-Andrea Baker
Crackin' good question! I suppose the obvious gloss over would be that
there must be hundreds of names wandering over the map. They didn't use it
to track Ron. When they looked at the map they were looking for Snape,
Norris, Filch and whoever was near their current position. Odds are
Pettigrew just got lost in the noise.
How exactly did that map work, by the way. How would hundreds of
names fit on the map?
Did they have to ask for someone, sort of like a ' I would like to see
Snape'...or did it just look like a bunch of moving dots? I would have
thought that would have been terribly confusing and a bit mind numbing...
Just a thought,
Cheers,
Sheila
I figured it showed only the important people (teachers, Filch,
Dumbledore, etc), and anyone near your immediate location. Minus
being in The Great hall or other crowded places. I also figured you
could touch an area and zoom in on it.
Sirius Kase
2003-12-30 14:26:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toon
Post by Sheila J
Post by Keven K Pinder
Post by andrea baker
Why was it that in the 2 years prior to the Prisoner of Azkaban,
neither Fred nor George ever noticed someone named Peter Pettigrew
following their brother around, when they viewed the Marauders' Map?
-Andrea Baker
Crackin' good question! I suppose the obvious gloss over would be that
there must be hundreds of names wandering over the map. They didn't use it
to track Ron. When they looked at the map they were looking for Snape,
Norris, Filch and whoever was near their current position. Odds are
Pettigrew just got lost in the noise.
How exactly did that map work, by the way. How would hundreds of
names fit on the map?
Did they have to ask for someone, sort of like a ' I would like to see
Snape'...or did it just look like a bunch of moving dots? I would have
thought that would have been terribly confusing and a bit mind numbing...
Just a thought,
Cheers,
Sheila
I figured it showed only the important people (teachers, Filch,
Dumbledore, etc), and anyone near your immediate location. Minus
being in The Great hall or other crowded places. I also figured you
could touch an area and zoom in on it.
Everyone we've ever seen on the map was away from the crowds. Harry has
never used it to notice people in the Great Hall or the dorm, only their
offices or in the halls late at night or on Saturday. I would guess
that the crowded areas are a mass of illegible black ink.

I like the zooming idea, it's possible, but not even hinted at by the
book. It will be interesting to see how the film folks handle it.
--
Sirius Kase

"Drat!" exclaimed Voldemort, "beaten by a pair of deuces." SteveK of a.f.h-p
Paul Wartenberg
2003-12-30 18:12:18 UTC
Permalink
Because Fred and George were looking for Filch and Mrs. Norris, not Peter
Pettigrew. You don't see what you don't look for.
Post by andrea baker
Why was it that in the 2 years prior to the Prisoner of Azkaban,
neither Fred nor George ever noticed someone named Peter Pettigrew
following their brother around, when they viewed the Marauders' Map?
-Andrea Baker
Andreas Klauer
2003-12-31 15:35:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Wartenberg
Because Fred and George were looking for Filch and Mrs. Norris, not Peter
Pettigrew. You don't see what you don't look for.
This is a very nice explanation, but in my opinion, it has a flaw:

How did Harry see Bartemius Crouch jr. in Snapes Office in HP4?
He certainly did not look for Bartemius Crouch, did he?
And if he was looking for Moody, he should have seen him in his
office, because he was there locked inside the trunk.

Andreas
Sirius Kase
2003-12-31 23:42:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andreas Klauer
Post by Paul Wartenberg
Because Fred and George were looking for Filch and Mrs. Norris, not Peter
Pettigrew. You don't see what you don't look for.
How did Harry see Bartemius Crouch jr. in Snapes Office in HP4?
He certainly did not look for Bartemius Crouch, did he?
And if he was looking for Moody, he should have seen him in his
office, because he was there locked inside the trunk.
Andreas
Maybe he did. Moody apparently asleep in his own office would not have
been as interesting as Crouch in Snape's office. And then when he saw
Moody and Snape in the hall, he had dropped the map and wouldn't have
noticed that Moody was still in his office. Crouch made sure Harry
didn't get another look.
--
Sirius Kase

"Drat!" exclaimed Voldemort, "beaten by a pair of deuces." SteveK of a.f.h-p
drusilla
2003-12-31 22:21:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by andrea baker
Why was it that in the 2 years prior to the Prisoner of Azkaban,
neither Fred nor George ever noticed someone named Peter Pettigrew
following their brother around, when they viewed the Marauders' Map?
-Andrea Baker
That was a good question, why everibody made jokes about it?
Anyway, We're not so sure how the map works, but as I see it, is like
this: ...
When Lupin saw the map, he saw the trio, SB and PP, apparently,m the
map shows you what you need to know (locations), or very important
things (crouch in Snape's ofice) or tells you about danger (PP with
the trio), so, why it didn't warn the twins about PP? maybe because PP
wasn't a danger for him or Harry in that time...

DRU.
deb
2004-01-01 15:41:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by drusilla
Post by andrea baker
Why was it that in the 2 years prior to the Prisoner of Azkaban,
neither Fred nor George ever noticed someone named Peter Pettigrew
following their brother around, when they viewed the Marauders' Map?
-Andrea Baker
That was a good question, why everibody made jokes about it?
Anyway, We're not so sure how the map works, but as I see it, is like
this: ...
When Lupin saw the map, he saw the trio, SB and PP, apparently,m the
map shows you what you need to know (locations), or very important
things (crouch in Snape's ofice) or tells you about danger (PP with
the trio), so, why it didn't warn the twins about PP? maybe because PP
wasn't a danger for him or Harry in that time...
DRU.
The twins didn't know who Pettigrew was. Harry even didn't know who he was
until the shack scene.

--
deb
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
... once again, road-runner leaves coyote in the dust ...
Derek Driscoll
2004-01-01 22:55:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by andrea baker
Why was it that in the 2 years prior to the Prisoner of Azkaban,
neither Fred nor George ever noticed someone named Peter Pettigrew
following their brother around, when they viewed the Marauders' Map?
-Andrea Baker
1. If the map shows everybody all the time, there would be hundreds
of names and dots on the map, limiting the chance of seeing Peter.

2. If the map only shows what the person needs, they would never see
Peter.

3. When would they be using the map? After hours when they're not
supposed to be out. In that case Ron is in his dorm. Why would Frend
and George be looking at Gryffindor tower when they are interested in
who's patrolling the halls?

4. Scabbers most likely spends all his time in Ron's room. For what
reason why F&G ever look to Ron's dorm room?
Troels Forchhammer
2004-01-03 00:00:06 UTC
Permalink
We had better use spoiler space for PoA and GoF:

LIE PROS
SO PERIL
OR PLIES
PRO LIES
ISLE PRO
RISE POL
EL SPIRO
EL RIP SO
LEO RIPS
POLE SIR
IS PROLE
PIS LORE
LORE SIP
ROLE PSI
PI ROLES
LOSE RIP
RIP SOLE
ORE LIPS
ROE SLIP
ROSE LIP
EROS LIP
SORE LIP
PER SOIL
PRE OILS
RE POLIS
Post by Derek Driscoll
Post by andrea baker
Why was it that in the 2 years prior to the Prisoner of Azkaban,
neither Fred nor George ever noticed someone named Peter Pettigrew
following their brother around, when they viewed the Marauders' Map?
1. If the map shows everybody all the time, there would be hundreds
of names and dots on the map, limiting the chance of seeing Peter.
2. If the map only shows what the person needs, they would never see
Peter.
3. When would they be using the map? After hours when they're not
supposed to be out. In that case Ron is in his dorm. Why would Frend
and George be looking at Gryffindor tower when they are interested in
who's patrolling the halls?
4. Scabbers most likely spends all his time in Ron's room. For what
reason why F&G ever look to Ron's dorm room?
I have yet to see a convincing theory that can explain all the disparate
facts we know about the Marauder's map.

A: No one saw Peter Pettigrew in the two and a half years he spent in
Harry and Ron's dormitory and in Hagrid's hut.
B: Remus Lupin saw Peter Pettigrew when looking for Harry, Ron and
Hermione.
C: Harry saw Bartemius Crouch in Snape's office (under that name, but in
the form of Mad-Eye Moody), while certainly not expecting or looking
for him.
D: A /new/ ink figure labelled "Harry Potter" had appeared when Harry
looked at the Map when standing in front of the statue of the one-eyed
witch.
E: Lupin apparently saw only one each of Harry and Hermione when there was
actually both the normal and the time-travelling pair around - and
quite close to each other.

The best explanation I've seen to cover A and B was that only a map-writer
can see another map-writer:
if ( ( figure in creators ) and ( viewer not in creators ) )
then
hide( figure )
else
show( figure )
end

I have yet to see one (or even two simple) theory that explain all the
facts.

Explaining that the Map shows you what you /need/ to know fails to explain
why no one saw Peter before Lupin, and modifying to the Map showing you
what you want to know fails to explain why Harry did see Crouch. Combining
the 'need to know' explanation with the map-writer explanation outlined
above still fails to explain why Lupin only saw one pair of Harry and
Hermione. Using three different explanations to cover it all gives it a
stale taste of ad hoc rescue theories ;-)
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk

This isn't right. This isn't even wrong.
Wolfgang Pauli, on a paper submitted by a physicist colleague
(Thus speaks the quantum physicist)
Nemesis
2004-01-03 03:45:59 UTC
Permalink
one of the reasons could be explained by what Mr. Weasly said: "never trust
something that thinks for itself and you can't see its brain" (i think it
goes in that general direction) and by how sorting hat works. the map maybe
really showing stuff only when its nesessary and the one that it finds
nesessary. also, since F&G were usually leaving the school grounds during
night (otherwise I dn suppose they need a map) that Scabbers was fast asleep
w/ Ron (not moving target doesn't show up). I'm thinking that map maybe
showing only those whom user is looking for or whom one is hiding from or
maybe wants to see. when Harry first took the map, he say Dumbledor - maybe
he wanted to check what was he doing - then it never showed up. also,
remember how map was playing the joke of Snape. its smart enough to know
whom to show and whom not to. which also explains how it managed to always
show correct name.

another explanation - maybe Scabbers always thought of itself as peter and
map picked up on that... plus, we aren't offered a deep look into F&G as in
Harry's mind. so who knows what they thought.

:)
Post by Troels Forchhammer
LIE PROS
SO PERIL
OR PLIES
PRO LIES
ISLE PRO
RISE POL
EL SPIRO
EL RIP SO
LEO RIPS
POLE SIR
IS PROLE
PIS LORE
LORE SIP
ROLE PSI
PI ROLES
LOSE RIP
RIP SOLE
ORE LIPS
ROE SLIP
ROSE LIP
EROS LIP
SORE LIP
PER SOIL
PRE OILS
RE POLIS
Post by Derek Driscoll
Post by andrea baker
Why was it that in the 2 years prior to the Prisoner of Azkaban,
neither Fred nor George ever noticed someone named Peter Pettigrew
following their brother around, when they viewed the Marauders' Map?
1. If the map shows everybody all the time, there would be hundreds
of names and dots on the map, limiting the chance of seeing Peter.
2. If the map only shows what the person needs, they would never see
Peter.
3. When would they be using the map? After hours when they're not
supposed to be out. In that case Ron is in his dorm. Why would Frend
and George be looking at Gryffindor tower when they are interested in
who's patrolling the halls?
4. Scabbers most likely spends all his time in Ron's room. For what
reason why F&G ever look to Ron's dorm room?
I have yet to see a convincing theory that can explain all the disparate
facts we know about the Marauder's map.
A: No one saw Peter Pettigrew in the two and a half years he spent in
Harry and Ron's dormitory and in Hagrid's hut.
B: Remus Lupin saw Peter Pettigrew when looking for Harry, Ron and
Hermione.
C: Harry saw Bartemius Crouch in Snape's office (under that name, but in
the form of Mad-Eye Moody), while certainly not expecting or looking
for him.
D: A /new/ ink figure labelled "Harry Potter" had appeared when Harry
looked at the Map when standing in front of the statue of the one-eyed
witch.
E: Lupin apparently saw only one each of Harry and Hermione when there was
actually both the normal and the time-travelling pair around - and
quite close to each other.
The best explanation I've seen to cover A and B was that only a map-writer
if ( ( figure in creators ) and ( viewer not in creators ) )
then
hide( figure )
else
show( figure )
end
I have yet to see one (or even two simple) theory that explain all the
facts.
Explaining that the Map shows you what you /need/ to know fails to explain
why no one saw Peter before Lupin, and modifying to the Map showing you
what you want to know fails to explain why Harry did see Crouch. Combining
the 'need to know' explanation with the map-writer explanation outlined
above still fails to explain why Lupin only saw one pair of Harry and
Hermione. Using three different explanations to cover it all gives it a
stale taste of ad hoc rescue theories ;-)
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk
This isn't right. This isn't even wrong.
Wolfgang Pauli, on a paper submitted by a physicist colleague
(Thus speaks the quantum physicist)
Toon
2004-01-03 10:11:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nemesis
one of the reasons could be explained by what Mr. Weasly said: "never trust
something that thinks for itself and you can't see its brain" (i think it
goes in that general direction) and by how sorting hat works. the map maybe
really showing stuff only when its nesessary and the one that it finds
nesessary. also, since F&G were usually leaving the school grounds during
night (otherwise I dn suppose they need a map) that Scabbers was fast asleep
w/ Ron (not moving target doesn't show up). I'm thinking that map maybe
showing only those whom user is looking for or whom one is hiding from or
maybe wants to see. when Harry first took the map, he say Dumbledor - maybe
he wanted to check what was he doing - then it never showed up. also,
remember how map was playing the joke of Snape. its smart enough to know
whom to show and whom not to. which also explains how it managed to always
show correct name.
OK< it knew Snape because he said his name. The map is designed to
need the saying first, otherwise it's unauthorized access. THen it
insults. The Marauders put in various insults, and the map recombines
them.
Nemesis
2004-01-03 17:55:38 UTC
Permalink
I still tend to think it had a special case for Snape. Would seem just a
thing for them to do :)
Post by Toon
Post by Nemesis
one of the reasons could be explained by what Mr. Weasly said: "never trust
something that thinks for itself and you can't see its brain" (i think it
goes in that general direction) and by how sorting hat works. the map maybe
really showing stuff only when its nesessary and the one that it finds
nesessary. also, since F&G were usually leaving the school grounds during
night (otherwise I dn suppose they need a map) that Scabbers was fast asleep
w/ Ron (not moving target doesn't show up). I'm thinking that map maybe
showing only those whom user is looking for or whom one is hiding from or
maybe wants to see. when Harry first took the map, he say Dumbledor - maybe
he wanted to check what was he doing - then it never showed up. also,
remember how map was playing the joke of Snape. its smart enough to know
whom to show and whom not to. which also explains how it managed to always
show correct name.
OK< it knew Snape because he said his name. The map is designed to
need the saying first, otherwise it's unauthorized access. THen it
insults. The Marauders put in various insults, and the map recombines
them.
Toon
2004-01-04 08:14:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nemesis
I still tend to think it had a special case for Snape. Would seem just a
thing for them to do :)
I think that's the whole reason for the insults. They planned on
Snape finding it, then expanded on it because it's too fun not too.
But I doubt they ever planned for him being a teacher. Unless he had
announce plans on being a potions master.
Sirius Kase
2004-01-05 01:56:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nemesis
one of the reasons could be e
One of what reasons? What, You mean I have to scroll down a couple of
pages and try to figure out which part of a previous post you are
responding to? Too much work. Top posters who don't make it clear what
it is they are responding too aren't worth the effort.

Please go somewhere else if you can't make life easy for me. I come
here to read interesting conversations, not spend precious moments
organizing your post for you.
--
Sirius Kase

"Drat!" exclaimed Voldemort, "beaten by a pair of deuces." SteveK of a.f.h-p
Tim Behrendsen
2004-01-03 04:57:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Troels Forchhammer
I have yet to see a convincing theory that can explain all the disparate
facts we know about the Marauder's map.
A: No one saw Peter Pettigrew in the two and a half years he spent in
Harry and Ron's dormitory and in Hagrid's hut.
B: Remus Lupin saw Peter Pettigrew when looking for Harry, Ron and
Hermione.
I agree with the theory that the map only shows Marauders when a Marauder is looking at
the map. That sounds like something that MWPP would do, in case the map fell into teacher
hands. They would especially not want to blow their animagus covers.
Post by Troels Forchhammer
C: Harry saw Bartemius Crouch in Snape's office (under that name, but in
the form of Mad-Eye Moody), while certainly not expecting or looking
for him.
I find this one the most worrisome, since it gives an inordinate amount of power to the
map. If it was that easy to tell that someone was Polyjuiced, then it would make sense
that Hogwarts would be equipped with some sort of detector after the last war. But let's
say that MWPP were just especially brilliant and the map is just darn smart. If you assume
that, then the map is just showing who's in Snape's office.
Post by Troels Forchhammer
D: A /new/ ink figure labelled "Harry Potter" had appeared when Harry
looked at the Map when standing in front of the statue of the one-eyed
witch.
I'm not sure how significant the word "new" is in this context. In reading the passage, it
doesn't seem all that interesting. What is interesting is that the map knows who is
holding it apparently, since it shows the map-Harry tapping the statue with the magic word
in a bubble.

In any case, clearly the map needs to show whoever is holding it, so I don't see this one
as much of a mystery, unless I'm missing your point.
Post by Troels Forchhammer
E: Lupin apparently saw only one each of Harry and Hermione when there was
actually both the normal and the time-travelling pair around - and
quite close to each other.
I think we need to assume that the map is intelligent, and in this case it may be simply
confused by the fact that it detects the same person in two different places. It knows
that's "impossible", so it picks only one set. I think if a real person was trying to plot
people on a map, and got conflicting information, they would tend to just pick the most
likely one.
Question Everything
2004-01-03 08:09:57 UTC
Permalink
I think the map has served it's purpose in so far as the story goes. It is
just one of those things found in every story that leanes allot of room for
blooper hunters. But none of these "bloopers" will probably play any
significant part in the final outcome.

Basically anyone who used the map to be subversive or to spy or cause
mischief would have been considered a " Marauder so anyone should have been
able to see Peter in it. I don't know why Lupin was able to except that it
fit with what was needed for the story.

Anyway, I'm very interested to know how the debt that Peter owes to Harry
will manifest itself and how that will work out.

J.C.
Post by Tim Behrendsen
Post by Troels Forchhammer
I have yet to see a convincing theory that can explain all the disparate
facts we know about the Marauder's map.
A: No one saw Peter Pettigrew in the two and a half years he spent in
Harry and Ron's dormitory and in Hagrid's hut.
B: Remus Lupin saw Peter Pettigrew when looking for Harry, Ron and
Hermione.
I agree with the theory that the map only shows Marauders when a Marauder is looking at
the map. That sounds like something that MWPP would do, in case the map fell into teacher
hands. They would especially not want to blow their animagus covers.
Post by Troels Forchhammer
C: Harry saw Bartemius Crouch in Snape's office (under that name, but in
the form of Mad-Eye Moody), while certainly not expecting or looking
for him.
I find this one the most worrisome, since it gives an inordinate amount of power to the
map. If it was that easy to tell that someone was Polyjuiced, then it would make sense
that Hogwarts would be equipped with some sort of detector after the last war. But let's
say that MWPP were just especially brilliant and the map is just darn smart. If you assume
that, then the map is just showing who's in Snape's office.
Post by Troels Forchhammer
D: A /new/ ink figure labelled "Harry Potter" had appeared when Harry
looked at the Map when standing in front of the statue of the one-eyed
witch.
I'm not sure how significant the word "new" is in this context. In reading the passage, it
doesn't seem all that interesting. What is interesting is that the map knows who is
holding it apparently, since it shows the map-Harry tapping the statue with the magic word
in a bubble.
In any case, clearly the map needs to show whoever is holding it, so I don't see this one
as much of a mystery, unless I'm missing your point.
Post by Troels Forchhammer
E: Lupin apparently saw only one each of Harry and Hermione when there was
actually both the normal and the time-travelling pair around - and
quite close to each other.
I think we need to assume that the map is intelligent, and in this case it may be simply
confused by the fact that it detects the same person in two different places. It knows
that's "impossible", so it picks only one set. I think if a real person was trying to plot
people on a map, and got conflicting information, they would tend to just pick the most
likely one.
Troels Forchhammer
2004-01-09 23:19:43 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Tim Behrendsen
I agree with the theory that the map only shows Marauders when a
Marauder is looking at the map. That sounds like something that MWPP
would do, in case the map fell into teacher hands. They would especially
not want to blow their animagus covers.
Agreed. Those are also to me the reasons for believing in this theory.
Post by Tim Behrendsen
Post by Troels Forchhammer
C: Harry saw Bartemius Crouch in Snape's office (under that name, but in
the form of Mad-Eye Moody), while certainly not expecting or looking
for him.
I find this one the most worrisome, since it gives an inordinate amount
of power to the map.
Agreed. The ability to see through both Animagus and Polyjuice
transformations is a very powerful feature no matter how it's used.
Post by Tim Behrendsen
If it was that easy to tell that someone was Polyjuiced, then it would
make sense that Hogwarts would be equipped with some sort of detector
after the last war.
I'm not sure that the Map knows or bothers whether the person is
Polyjuiced, Animagically transformed or something else; I think that it
somehow just shows who the person really is - to discover a magical
disguise you would probably have to correlate the Map with what you can
see.
Post by Tim Behrendsen
But let's say that MWPP were just especially brilliant and the map is
just darn smart. If you assume that, then the map is just showing who's
in Snape's office.
Exactly.
The incident is, however, also important in other ways when trying to work
out the properties of the Marauder's Map. It is generally assumed that the
Map doesn't show everyone at Hogwarts, so any theory of how it decides
which persons to actually show must take this incident into account (it is
certain that Harry wasn't looking for or expecting Crouch at that point).
Post by Tim Behrendsen
Post by Troels Forchhammer
D: A /new/ ink figure labelled "Harry Potter" had appeared when Harry
looked at the Map when standing in front of the statue of the one-eyed
witch.
I'm not sure how significant the word "new" is in this context.
It is, IMO, significant in that it tells us that the figure representing
Harry had not been on the Map previously when he looked at it together
with the twins. This tells us that whatever the criteria for being shown
are, Harry didn't fulfil any of them earlier, but now he does (possibly
he now fulfils a "holding the Map" criterion).
Post by Tim Behrendsen
What is interesting is that the map knows who is holding it apparently,
since it shows the map-Harry tapping the statue with the magic word in a
bubble.
And that it is able to know/guess the needs of the person holding it.
That could of course also help explain how it decides which persons to
show.
Post by Tim Behrendsen
Post by Troels Forchhammer
E: Lupin apparently saw only one each of Harry and Hermione when there
was actually both the normal and the time-travelling pair around -
and quite close to each other.
I think we need to assume that the map is intelligent,
That seems almost an understatement to me ;-)
Intelligence is a fundamental necessity for the Map to work as we have
seen - it must be able to detect needs and wants of the person holding it.
A quite advanced piece of MI (Magical Intelligence) coding ;-)
Post by Tim Behrendsen
and in this case it may be simply confused by the fact that it detects
the same person in two different places. It knows that's "impossible",
so it picks only one set.
"It's not a bug - it's a feature" ;-)

A limitation in the Map - being unable to handle more than one instance of
any one person, it refuses to acknowledge the second pair. When, however,
the first pair disappeared, the Map, on the next area scan, picked up the
second pair (who were now the only instances).
Possibly James et Al. should have known better - didn't they know about
time travelling when they wrote the Marauder's Map? I don't think we'll
ever know.
Post by Tim Behrendsen
I think if a real person was trying to plot people on a map, and got
conflicting information, they would tend to just pick the most likely
one.
It depends on the person and situation, I'd say. If a radar operator were
to discover two vessels giving the same identity, I hope he'd do more than
just ignore one (these days I think it's likely that there would be some
fighters in the air within a couple of minutes to check the identity of
both vessels).

I would probably think that there might be a problem with the identity,
but map both anyway - marking both with the resulting identity and a large
question mark to note my uncertainty.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk

"It would seem that you have no useful skill or talent
whatsoever," he said. "Have you thought of going into
teaching?"
-- (Terry Pratchett, Mort)
Kryss
2004-01-10 00:03:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by deb
<snip>
Post by Tim Behrendsen
I agree with the theory that the map only shows Marauders when a
Marauder is looking at the map. That sounds like something that MWPP
would do, in case the map fell into teacher hands. They would especially
not want to blow their animagus covers.
Agreed. Those are also to me the reasons for believing in this theory.
Post by Tim Behrendsen
Post by Troels Forchhammer
C: Harry saw Bartemius Crouch in Snape's office (under that name, but in
the form of Mad-Eye Moody), while certainly not expecting or looking
for him.
I find this one the most worrisome, since it gives an inordinate amount
of power to the map.
Agreed. The ability to see through both Animagus and Polyjuice
transformations is a very powerful feature no matter how it's used.
Post by Tim Behrendsen
If it was that easy to tell that someone was Polyjuiced, then it would
make sense that Hogwarts would be equipped with some sort of detector
after the last war.
I'm not sure that the Map knows or bothers whether the person is
Polyjuiced, Animagically transformed or something else; I think that it
somehow just shows who the person really is - to discover a magical
disguise you would probably have to correlate the Map with what you can
see.
Post by Tim Behrendsen
But let's say that MWPP were just especially brilliant and the map is
just darn smart. If you assume that, then the map is just showing who's
in Snape's office.
Exactly.
The incident is, however, also important in other ways when trying to work
out the properties of the Marauder's Map. It is generally assumed that the
Map doesn't show everyone at Hogwarts, so any theory of how it decides
which persons to actually show must take this incident into account (it is
certain that Harry wasn't looking for or expecting Crouch at that point).
Post by Tim Behrendsen
Post by Troels Forchhammer
D: A /new/ ink figure labelled "Harry Potter" had appeared when Harry
looked at the Map when standing in front of the statue of the one-eyed
witch.
I'm not sure how significant the word "new" is in this context.
It is, IMO, significant in that it tells us that the figure representing
Harry had not been on the Map previously when he looked at it together
with the twins. This tells us that whatever the criteria for being shown
are, Harry didn't fulfil any of them earlier, but now he does (possibly
he now fulfils a "holding the Map" criterion).
Post by Tim Behrendsen
What is interesting is that the map knows who is holding it apparently,
since it shows the map-Harry tapping the statue with the magic word in a
bubble.
And that it is able to know/guess the needs of the person holding it.
That could of course also help explain how it decides which persons to
show.
Post by Tim Behrendsen
Post by Troels Forchhammer
E: Lupin apparently saw only one each of Harry and Hermione when there
was actually both the normal and the time-travelling pair around -
and quite close to each other.
I think we need to assume that the map is intelligent,
That seems almost an understatement to me ;-)
Intelligence is a fundamental necessity for the Map to work as we have
seen - it must be able to detect needs and wants of the person holding it.
A quite advanced piece of MI (Magical Intelligence) coding ;-)
Post by Tim Behrendsen
and in this case it may be simply confused by the fact that it detects
the same person in two different places. It knows that's "impossible",
so it picks only one set.
"It's not a bug - it's a feature" ;-)
A limitation in the Map - being unable to handle more than one instance of
any one person, it refuses to acknowledge the second pair. When, however,
the first pair disappeared, the Map, on the next area scan, picked up the
second pair (who were now the only instances).
Possibly James et Al. should have known better - didn't they know about
time travelling when they wrote the Marauder's Map? I don't think we'll
ever know.
Post by Tim Behrendsen
I think if a real person was trying to plot people on a map, and got
conflicting information, they would tend to just pick the most likely
one.
It depends on the person and situation, I'd say. If a radar operator were
to discover two vessels giving the same identity, I hope he'd do more than
just ignore one (these days I think it's likely that there would be some
fighters in the air within a couple of minutes to check the identity of
both vessels).
I would probably think that there might be a problem with the identity,
but map both anyway - marking both with the resulting identity and a large
question mark to note my uncertainty.
All right, who else works in some IT (computing) departement here :) (and
doesn't think on the same line)

I was up for SQL, but MIC might be better, and you can even embbed it in
paper!
I works better than a PDA :)

kryss
Cornelius Fudge
2004-01-10 05:47:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by deb
<snip>
Post by Tim Behrendsen
I agree with the theory that the map only shows Marauders when a
Marauder is looking at the map. That sounds like something that MWPP
would do, in case the map fell into teacher hands. They would especially
not want to blow their animagus covers.
Agreed. Those are also to me the reasons for believing in this
theory.
Post by deb
Post by Tim Behrendsen
Post by Troels Forchhammer
C: Harry saw Bartemius Crouch in Snape's office (under that
name, but in
Post by deb
Post by Tim Behrendsen
Post by Troels Forchhammer
the form of Mad-Eye Moody), while certainly not expecting or looking
for him.
I find this one the most worrisome, since it gives an inordinate amount
of power to the map.
Agreed. The ability to see through both Animagus and Polyjuice
transformations is a very powerful feature no matter how it's
used.
Post by deb
Post by Tim Behrendsen
If it was that easy to tell that someone was Polyjuiced, then it would
make sense that Hogwarts would be equipped with some sort of
detector
Post by deb
Post by Tim Behrendsen
after the last war.
I'm not sure that the Map knows or bothers whether the person is
Polyjuiced, Animagically transformed or something else; I think that it
somehow just shows who the person really is - to discover a
magical
Post by deb
disguise you would probably have to correlate the Map with what you can
see.
Post by Tim Behrendsen
But let's say that MWPP were just especially brilliant and the map is
just darn smart. If you assume that, then the map is just
showing who's
Post by deb
Post by Tim Behrendsen
in Snape's office.
Exactly.
The incident is, however, also important in other ways when trying to work
out the properties of the Marauder's Map. It is generally assumed that the
Map doesn't show everyone at Hogwarts, so any theory of how it
decides
Post by deb
which persons to actually show must take this incident into
account (it is
Post by deb
certain that Harry wasn't looking for or expecting Crouch at that point).
Post by Tim Behrendsen
Post by Troels Forchhammer
D: A /new/ ink figure labelled "Harry Potter" had appeared when Harry
looked at the Map when standing in front of the statue of the one-eyed
witch.
I'm not sure how significant the word "new" is in this context.
It is, IMO, significant in that it tells us that the figure
representing
Post by deb
Harry had not been on the Map previously when he looked at it
together
Post by deb
with the twins. This tells us that whatever the criteria for being shown
are, Harry didn't fulfil any of them earlier, but now he does
(possibly
Post by deb
he now fulfils a "holding the Map" criterion).
Post by Tim Behrendsen
What is interesting is that the map knows who is holding it
apparently,
Post by deb
Post by Tim Behrendsen
since it shows the map-Harry tapping the statue with the magic word in a
bubble.
And that it is able to know/guess the needs of the person holding it.
That could of course also help explain how it decides which
persons to
Post by deb
show.
Post by Tim Behrendsen
Post by Troels Forchhammer
E: Lupin apparently saw only one each of Harry and Hermione
when there
Post by deb
Post by Tim Behrendsen
Post by Troels Forchhammer
was actually both the normal and the time-travelling pair around -
and quite close to each other.
I think we need to assume that the map is intelligent,
That seems almost an understatement to me ;-)
Intelligence is a fundamental necessity for the Map to work as we have
seen - it must be able to detect needs and wants of the person
holding it.
Post by deb
A quite advanced piece of MI (Magical Intelligence) coding ;-)
Post by Tim Behrendsen
and in this case it may be simply confused by the fact that it detects
the same person in two different places. It knows that's
"impossible",
Post by deb
Post by Tim Behrendsen
so it picks only one set.
"It's not a bug - it's a feature" ;-)
A limitation in the Map - being unable to handle more than one
instance of
Post by deb
any one person, it refuses to acknowledge the second pair. When, however,
the first pair disappeared, the Map, on the next area scan, picked up the
second pair (who were now the only instances).
Possibly James et Al. should have known better - didn't they know about
time travelling when they wrote the Marauder's Map? I don't think we'll
ever know.
Post by Tim Behrendsen
I think if a real person was trying to plot people on a map, and
got
Post by deb
Post by Tim Behrendsen
conflicting information, they would tend to just pick the most likely
one.
It depends on the person and situation, I'd say. If a radar
operator were
Post by deb
to discover two vessels giving the same identity, I hope he'd do more than
just ignore one (these days I think it's likely that there would be some
fighters in the air within a couple of minutes to check the
identity of
Post by deb
both vessels).
I would probably think that there might be a problem with the
identity,
Post by deb
but map both anyway - marking both with the resulting identity and a large
question mark to note my uncertainty.
Why didn't the powerful map show Fred and George QuirrelMort?
Did they even possess the map in Harry's first year?
Troels Forchhammer
2004-01-11 01:04:36 UTC
Permalink
Cornelius Fudge wrote:
<please snip irrelevant material>
Post by Cornelius Fudge
Why didn't the powerful map show Fred and George QuirrelMort?
I'm sure it showed them Quirrell -
Post by Cornelius Fudge
Did they even possess the map in Harry's first year?
Yup - they got it when they were first-years themselves.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk

A Thaum is the basic unit of magical strength. It has been
universally established as the amount of magic needed to
create one small white pigeon or three normal sized billiard
balls.
-- (Terry Pratchett, The Light Fantastic)
Toon
2004-01-11 08:22:50 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 05:47:51 GMT, "Cornelius Fudge"
Post by Cornelius Fudge
Why didn't the powerful map show Fred and George QuirrelMort?
Did they even possess the map in Harry's first year?
It might only work with living beings, not spiritual, not quite dead
not living guys.
Sirius Kase
2004-01-12 06:41:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toon
On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 05:47:51 GMT, "Cornelius Fudge"
Post by Cornelius Fudge
Why didn't the powerful map show Fred and George QuirrelMort?
Did they even possess the map in Harry's first year?
It might only work with living beings, not spiritual, not quite dead
not living guys.
I showed Peeves bouncing around somewhere. Is Peeves a spiritual being?
--
Sirius Kase

"Drat!" exclaimed Voldemort, "beaten by a pair of deuces." SteveK of a.f.h-p
Pawel F. Gora
2004-01-12 14:07:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sirius Kase
Post by Toon
It might only work with living beings, not spiritual, not quite dead
not living guys.
I showed Peeves bouncing around somewhere. Is Peeves a spiritual being?
Peeves is not a ghost - in the sense of the remaining impression of
a living person, as described by Nick in OotP. Quoting from PS/SS:

About twenty ghosts had just
streamed through the back wall. Pearly-white and slightly transparent,
they glided across the room talking to one another and hardly glancing
at the first years. They seemed to be arguing. What looked like a fat
little monk was saying: "Forgive and forget, I say, we ought to give him
a second chance --"

"My dear Friar, haven't we given Peeves all the chances he deserves? He
gives us all a bad name and you know, he's not really even a ghost..."
--
Paweł Góra
Nocami dużo czytam, zimą jeżdżę na południe.
Sirius Kase
2004-01-12 16:28:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pawel F. Gora
Post by Sirius Kase
Post by Toon
It might only work with living beings, not spiritual, not quite dead
not living guys.
I showed Peeves bouncing around somewhere. Is Peeves a spiritual being?
Peeves is not a ghost - in the sense of the remaining impression of
About twenty ghosts had just
streamed through the back wall. Pearly-white and slightly transparent,
they glided across the room talking to one another and hardly glancing
at the first years. They seemed to be arguing. What looked like a fat
little monk was saying: "Forgive and forget, I say, we ought to give him
a second chance --"
"My dear Friar, haven't we given Peeves all the chances he deserves? He
gives us all a bad name and you know, he's not really even a ghost..."
Did I say something about ghosts?
--
Sirius Kase

"Drat!" exclaimed Voldemort, "beaten by a pair of deuces." SteveK of a.f.h-p
Pawel F. Gora
2004-01-12 22:25:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sirius Kase
=20
Post by Pawel F. Gora
Post by Sirius Kase
Is Peeves a spiritual being?
=20
Peeves is not a ghost
=20
Did I say something about ghosts?
OK, so he's neither a ghost, nor a spiritual being. What's the difference,
anyway? Note that I'm not a native English speaker and I'm asking
seriously. Does "a ghost" necessarily mean the spiritual remnants of
a deceased person?
-- =20
Pawe=B3 G=F3ra=09=09=09Three Laws of Thermodynamics:
Institute of Physics =09=091. You can't win.
Jagellonian University=09=092. You can't break even.
Cracow, Poland=09=09=093. You can't even quit the game.
Sirius Kase
2004-01-13 03:03:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pawel F. Gora
Post by Sirius Kase
Post by Pawel F. Gora
Post by Sirius Kase
Is Peeves a spiritual being?
Peeves is not a ghost
Did I say something about ghosts?
OK, so he's neither a ghost, nor a spiritual being. What's the difference,
anyway? Note that I'm not a native English speaker and I'm asking
seriously. Does "a ghost" necessarily mean the spiritual remnants of
a deceased person?
--
Institute of Physics 1. You can't win.
Jagellonian University 2. You can't break even.
Cracow, Poland 3. You can't even quit the game.
Sorry if I was a little rude, didn't mean it that way. I don't normally
equate spiritual beings and ghosts since, to me, a spiritual being would
include all living creatures with souls.

Let's see, I hate dictionaries, so I'll just see what's in my head. the
spirit is the nonphysical part of a being. A ghost is all spirit and
not "properly dead". A person is both a spiritial being and a physical
being. A dead body is just the physical being. A ghost can't throw
things around, Peeves can, so he is more than just spirit. So he isn't
a "proper ghost". But I don't think that this is the way the OP was
using these terms. And Rowling didn't specifically say what she meant
by "properly dead" and "proper ghost", she just gave examples.

I believe someone was making the point that the map identified people by
there spirit identities, not their physical appearance and therefore, it
was no special feature that it identified the polyjuiced and animagicly
transformed people properly.

Here's what I was replying to and it does seem that Toon is referring to
ghosts.
Post by Pawel F. Gora
It might only work with living beings, not spiritual, not quite dead
not living guys.
--
Sirius Kase

"Drat!" exclaimed Voldemort, "beaten by a pair of deuces." SteveK of a.f.h-p
Toon
2004-01-13 08:30:59 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 03:03:19 GMT, Sirius Kase
Post by Sirius Kase
Post by Pawel F. Gora
Post by Sirius Kase
Post by Pawel F. Gora
Post by Sirius Kase
Is Peeves a spiritual being?
Peeves is not a ghost
Did I say something about ghosts?
OK, so he's neither a ghost, nor a spiritual being. What's the difference,
anyway? Note that I'm not a native English speaker and I'm asking
seriously. Does "a ghost" necessarily mean the spiritual remnants of
a deceased person?
--
Institute of Physics 1. You can't win.
Jagellonian University 2. You can't break even.
Cracow, Poland 3. You can't even quit the game.
Sorry if I was a little rude, didn't mean it that way. I don't normally
equate spiritual beings and ghosts since, to me, a spiritual being would
include all living creatures with souls.
OK. I man spiritual as the could, the non physical part.
Post by Sirius Kase
Here's what I was replying to and it does seem that Toon is referring to
ghosts.
Post by Pawel F. Gora
It might only work with living beings, not spiritual, not quite dead
not living guys.
It would really help if we knew what exactly, V had become the night
he failed to kill Harry. But think of it this way. He was
unprofitable on the map, because of his being trapped between life and
death involuntary.
Toon
2004-01-13 08:15:50 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 06:41:59 GMT, Sirius Kase
Post by Sirius Kase
Post by Toon
On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 05:47:51 GMT, "Cornelius Fudge"
Post by Cornelius Fudge
Why didn't the powerful map show Fred and George QuirrelMort?
Did they even possess the map in Harry's first year?
It might only work with living beings, not spiritual, not quite dead
not living guys.
I showed Peeves bouncing around somewhere. Is Peeves a spiritual being?
Well, he's a poltergeist, which isn't a ghost, so he might be a
technicality. Also, assuming he has been around a while, he might
have been specifically included for protection. Don't need him
singing a song about your rule breaking.
Troels Forchhammer
2004-01-14 21:37:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toon
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 06:41:59 GMT, Sirius Kase
Post by Sirius Kase
I showed Peeves bouncing around somewhere. Is Peeves a spiritual being?
Well, he's a poltergeist, which isn't a ghost, so he might be a
technicality.
Creatures in Potterverse (or magical creatures at least, which Peeves
certainly is) is divided into Beasts, Beings and Spirits.

Vampires are Beings, along with various other unpleasant creatures,
while ghosts certainly are Spirits. I would assume, since "geist" is
"spirit", that a Poltergeist is also a spirit, so in that sense, yes
Peeves is most likely a spiritual creature (Being being reserved for
Beings ;-)
Post by Toon
Also, assuming he has been around a while, he might have been
specifically included for protection. Don't need him singing a song
about your rule breaking.
Not forgetting the Baron, Myrtle, Binns and other deceased people
inhabiting Hogwarts, who might try to get you in trouble - intentionally
or not.

Since the Marauder's Map also shows Mrs Norris, I assume that it will
show all three categories of creatures (I also assume that they built
some magical intelligence into the map, which ensures that it doesn't
show every single bug or house-elf in the castle).
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk

"The idea of being *paid* to govern is terribly middle-class :-)"
- Igenlode on AFH-P
Toon
2004-01-15 09:19:06 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 22:37:21 +0100, Troels Forchhammer
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Not forgetting the Baron, Myrtle, Binns and other deceased people
inhabiting Hogwarts, who might try to get you in trouble - intentionally
or not.
Well, I don't think Myrtle ever left the bathroom. Was Binns dead
back then?
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Since the Marauder's Map also shows Mrs Norris, I assume that it will
show all three categories of creatures (I also assume that they built
some magical intelligence into the map, which ensures that it doesn't
show every single bug or house-elf in the castle).
Well, Mrs. Noriss seems to squeal on naughty children, so again, for
protection, you'd need her. But I think the map shows you who you
need to watch out for. SO it changes per user.
Troels Forchhammer
2004-01-15 18:03:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toon
On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 22:37:21 +0100, Troels Forchhammer
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Not forgetting the Baron, Myrtle, Binns and other deceased people
inhabiting Hogwarts, who might try to get you in trouble - intentionally
or not.
Well, I don't think Myrtle ever left the bathroom.
The prefects' bathroom?
Getting flushed into the lake.

Myrtle must have been dead for approximately 25 years when James et Al.
made the Map, so it is, IMO, very much possible that she had developed
these practices at that time - and the way she describes how she gets
flushed down into the lake gives me the impression that she doesn't
intend it.
Post by Toon
Was Binns dead back then?
Good question. I don't recall that we've ever been told how long he has
been dead.
Post by Toon
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Since the Marauder's Map also shows Mrs Norris, I assume that it will
show all three categories of creatures (I also assume that they built
some magical intelligence into the map, which ensures that it doesn't
show every single bug or house-elf in the castle).
Well, Mrs. Noriss seems to squeal on naughty children, so again, for
protection, you'd need her.
Have we been told if Mr Filch was the caretaker back then?
He wasn't caretaker when Molly and Arthur Weasley were at Hogwarts, but
I can't remember if any of James' friends (or his enemy for that sake)
has referred to the caretaker in their days.
Post by Toon
But I think the map shows you who you need to watch out for. SO it
changes per user.
I quite agree. My comments were directed at the Map's capability for
showing any creature /when needed/.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost."
- Bilbo (verse of Aragorn), 'LotR' (J.R.R. Tolkien)
Sirius Kase
2004-01-18 05:07:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Post by Toon
On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 22:37:21 +0100, Troels Forchhammer
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Not forgetting the Baron, Myrtle, Binns and other deceased people
inhabiting Hogwarts, who might try to get you in trouble - intentionally
or not.
Well, I don't think Myrtle ever left the bathroom.
The prefects' bathroom?
Getting flushed into the lake.
Myrtle also attended Nick's party in the dungeon. she can get around,
she just seems to prefer that particular toilet, probably the same one
she hid out in when she was alive.
--
Sirius Kase

"Drat!" exclaimed Voldemort, "beaten by a pair of deuces." SteveK of a.f.h-p
Bojan Bugarin
2004-01-18 09:30:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sirius Kase
Post by Troels Forchhammer
The prefects' bathroom?
Getting flushed into the lake.
Myrtle also attended Nick's party in the dungeon. she can get around,
she just seems to prefer that particular toilet, probably the same one
she hid out in when she was alive.
Not probably. It's most certainly the same one.
--
Bojan Bugarin

"Bad spellers of the world Untie!"
Toon
2004-01-10 08:36:22 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 00:19:43 +0100, Troels Forchhammer
Post by deb
<snip>
Post by Tim Behrendsen
I agree with the theory that the map only shows Marauders when a
Marauder is looking at the map. That sounds like something that MWPP
would do, in case the map fell into teacher hands. They would especially
not want to blow their animagus covers.
Agreed. Those are also to me the reasons for believing in this theory.
Post by Tim Behrendsen
Post by Troels Forchhammer
C: Harry saw Bartemius Crouch in Snape's office (under that name, but in
the form of Mad-Eye Moody), while certainly not expecting or looking
for him.
I find this one the most worrisome, since it gives an inordinate amount
of power to the map.
Agreed. The ability to see through both Animagus and Polyjuice
transformations is a very powerful feature no matter how it's used.
Yes, but the question is, why have this power? I mean, maybe the
Animagus form to see McGonagall, and maybe another Animagus teacher
now gone, but seriously, unless it works wher only the makers can see
each other, anyone can find them and see they're animals. And
Polyjuice makes no sense. Why would 4 school kids even think of
needing that?
Troels Forchhammer
2004-01-10 18:33:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toon
On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 00:19:43 +0100, Troels Forchhammer
Smallish PoA spoiler space:

97
89
83
79
73
71
67
61
59
53
47
43
41
37
31
29
23
19
17
13
11
7
5
3
2
Post by Toon
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Agreed. The ability to see through both Animagus and Polyjuice
transformations is a very powerful feature no matter how it's used.
Yes, but the question is, why have this power?
I would think that it's a more basic thing - the Map has the power to
show who it /really/ is - despite of any disguises, magical or more
mundane. The map may be picking up on some kind of awareness of self,
the perception of own identity or something and use that to show who
is there (that would short-circuit the need for seeing through
disguises).

We haven't met anyone who thought he was someone else (not just
pretended it), so we can't know if that would be able to fool the
map (unless we argue that Peter thought of himself fully as Scabbers
until he became aware of Sirius being after him, at which point he
again became aware of his human identity, so to speak. No-one would
have wondered about seeing an ink figure for Scabbers ...)
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk

"The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can"
- Bilbo's walking-song, 'LotR' (J.R.R. Tolkien)
Sirius Kase
2004-01-10 21:16:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toon
On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 00:19:43 +0100, Troels Forchhammer
Post by deb
<snip>
Post by Tim Behrendsen
I agree with the theory that the map only shows Marauders when a
Marauder is looking at the map. That sounds like something that MWPP
would do, in case the map fell into teacher hands. They would especially
not want to blow their animagus covers.
Agreed. Those are also to me the reasons for believing in this theory.
Post by Tim Behrendsen
Post by Troels Forchhammer
C: Harry saw Bartemius Crouch in Snape's office (under that name, but in
the form of Mad-Eye Moody), while certainly not expecting or looking
for him.
I find this one the most worrisome, since it gives an inordinate amount
of power to the map.
Agreed. The ability to see through both Animagus and Polyjuice
transformations is a very powerful feature no matter how it's used.
Yes, but the question is, why have this power? I mean, maybe the
Animagus form to see McGonagall, and maybe another Animagus teacher
now gone, but seriously, unless it works wher only the makers can see
each other, anyone can find them and see they're animals. And
Polyjuice makes no sense. Why would 4 school kids even think of
needing that?
Maybe they didn't think of it. Young designers rarely consider all
contingencies. That's why bugs are so common. If the designers are
lucky is in this case, their lack of planning can be seen as a feature.
--
Sirius Kase

"Drat!" exclaimed Voldemort, "beaten by a pair of deuces." SteveK of a.f.h-p
Meghan Noecker
2004-01-11 04:34:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toon
Yes, but the question is, why have this power? I mean, maybe the
Animagus form to see McGonagall, and maybe another Animagus teacher
now gone, but seriously, unless it works wher only the makers can see
each other, anyone can find them and see they're animals. And
Polyjuice makes no sense. Why would 4 school kids even think of
needing that?
I don't believe it sees through these forms at all. Our identity is
not based on our personal appearance. Why would the map determine
identities by personal appearance (or seeing through them). It simply
identifies the mind.


Meghan & the Zoo Crew
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com
Mark Evans
2004-01-10 11:33:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Troels Forchhammer
I'm not sure that the Map knows or bothers whether the person is
Polyjuiced, Animagically transformed or something else; I think that it
somehow just shows who the person really is - to discover a magical
My theory is that it tracks a person's mind, spirit, soul or similar.
Post by Troels Forchhammer
disguise you would probably have to correlate the Map with what you can
see.
Exactly.
The incident is, however, also important in other ways when trying to work
out the properties of the Marauder's Map. It is generally assumed that the
Map doesn't show everyone at Hogwarts, so any theory of how it decides
which persons to actually show must take this incident into account (it is
certain that Harry wasn't looking for or expecting Crouch at that point).
Maybe the map is actually tracking something like "threats to Harry
Potter getting back to the Gryffindor common room unseen."
Toon
2004-01-03 10:04:48 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 01:00:06 +0100, Troels Forchhammer
Post by Troels Forchhammer
LIE PROS
SO PERIL
OR PLIES
PRO LIES
ISLE PRO
RISE POL
EL SPIRO
EL RIP SO
LEO RIPS
POLE SIR
IS PROLE
PIS LORE
LORE SIP
ROLE PSI
PI ROLES
LOSE RIP
RIP SOLE
ORE LIPS
ROE SLIP
ROSE LIP
EROS LIP
SORE LIP
PER SOIL
PRE OILS
RE POLIS
I have yet to see a convincing theory that can explain all the disparate
facts we know about the Marauder's map.
A: No one saw Peter Pettigrew in the two and a half years he spent in
Harry and Ron's dormitory and in Hagrid's hut.
Prove it. You're assuming seeing Peter Pettigrew would send up a red
flag. By the time Peter came back to Hogwarts, not too many students
would know the name. And if Filch had it for years, the twins might
have been the first in several years, and never thought much about the
Gryffendor named Peter Pettigrew. I doubt their parents went on about
Serious Black and his crimes, and the death of poor Peter. And if
they learned of it in history class, I doubt they would even think
it's the same Peter, or if they'd even remember. And since they
wouldn't be looking at the dorms much, they could miss him. I doubt
everybody knows everybody's name in the Houses (minus Harry, of
course, and probably Percy as the Head. Maybe Hermione because of her
grades.)
Post by Troels Forchhammer
B: Remus Lupin saw Peter Pettigrew when looking for Harry, Ron and
Hermione.
Well, they were all together.
Post by Troels Forchhammer
C: Harry saw Bartemius Crouch in Snape's office (under that name, but in
the form of Mad-Eye Moody), while certainly not expecting or looking
for him.
Harry was looking for anyone. he might not have known you can do
specifics. Or maybe, he was only looking for Grownups and
Prefects/Heads. Fellow students meant nothing. No one would tell no
him, lest they get in trouble. Ala draco in COS. Or maybe the map
shows you who you need to see. Like it's part Sneakascope/Foe glass.
Crouch was shown because he was needed to be seen. The marauders
designed it so they could be sneaky, so they might have made it to
show em who they need to see, such as other sneaky people, like a
spying Snape.
Post by Troels Forchhammer
D: A /new/ ink figure labelled "Harry Potter" had appeared when Harry
looked at the Map when standing in front of the statue of the one-eyed
witch.
It included him. So he knew where he was in relation to the secret
exits.
Post by Troels Forchhammer
E: Lupin apparently saw only one each of Harry and Hermione when there was
actually both the normal and the time-travelling pair around - and
quite close to each other.
Well, if he saw the naturals with Peter, he would be surprised by
seeing Peter, realize what was going on, and then never have even seen
a second HHr. Or maybe they were listed under a different name for
time travelers, or had a symbol to represent time travelers, and he
never bothered with that, because he won't interfere with time.
Post by Troels Forchhammer
The best explanation I've seen to cover A and B was that only a map-writer
if ( ( figure in creators ) and ( viewer not in creators ) )
then
hide( figure )
else
show( figure )
end
No real point for that. Anyone who knew how it use it wouldn't care
about seeing them, and unauthorized users get insulted ala Snape.

So, good ideas, bad ideas? Holes? Worst suggestions ever?
SA
2004-01-03 10:38:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toon
On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 01:00:06 +0100, Troels Forchhammer
Post by Troels Forchhammer
LIE PROS
SO PERIL
OR PLIES
PRO LIES
ISLE PRO
RISE POL
EL SPIRO
EL RIP SO
LEO RIPS
POLE SIR
IS PROLE
PIS LORE
LORE SIP
ROLE PSI
PI ROLES
LOSE RIP
RIP SOLE
ORE LIPS
ROE SLIP
ROSE LIP
EROS LIP
SORE LIP
PER SOIL
PRE OILS
RE POLIS
I have yet to see a convincing theory that can explain all the
disparate facts we know about the Marauder's map.
A: No one saw Peter Pettigrew in the two and a half years he spent in
Harry and Ron's dormitory and in Hagrid's hut.
Prove it. You're assuming seeing Peter Pettigrew would send up a red
flag. By the time Peter came back to Hogwarts, not too many students
would know the name. And if Filch had it for years, the twins might
have been the first in several years, and never thought much about the
Gryffendor named Peter Pettigrew. I doubt their parents went on about
Serious Black and his crimes, and the death of poor Peter. And if
they learned of it in history class, I doubt they would even think
it's the same Peter, or if they'd even remember. And since they
wouldn't be looking at the dorms much, they could miss him. I doubt
everybody knows everybody's name in the Houses (minus Harry, of
course, and probably Percy as the Head. Maybe Hermione because of her
grades.)
Post by Troels Forchhammer
B: Remus Lupin saw Peter Pettigrew when looking for Harry, Ron and
Hermione.
Well, they were all together.
Post by Troels Forchhammer
C: Harry saw Bartemius Crouch in Snape's office (under that name,
but in the form of Mad-Eye Moody), while certainly not expecting
or looking for him.
Harry was looking for anyone. he might not have known you can do
specifics. Or maybe, he was only looking for Grownups and
Prefects/Heads. Fellow students meant nothing. No one would tell no
him, lest they get in trouble. Ala draco in COS. Or maybe the map
shows you who you need to see. Like it's part Sneakascope/Foe glass.
Crouch was shown because he was needed to be seen. The marauders
designed it so they could be sneaky, so they might have made it to
show em who they need to see, such as other sneaky people, like a
spying Snape.
Post by Troels Forchhammer
D: A /new/ ink figure labelled "Harry Potter" had appeared when Harry
looked at the Map when standing in front of the statue of the
one-eyed witch.
It included him. So he knew where he was in relation to the secret
exits.
Post by Troels Forchhammer
E: Lupin apparently saw only one each of Harry and Hermione when
there was actually both the normal and the time-travelling pair
around - and quite close to each other.
Well, if he saw the naturals with Peter, he would be surprised by
seeing Peter, realize what was going on, and then never have even seen
a second HHr. Or maybe they were listed under a different name for
time travelers, or had a symbol to represent time travelers, and he
never bothered with that, because he won't interfere with time.
Post by Troels Forchhammer
The best explanation I've seen to cover A and B was that only a
if ( ( figure in creators ) and ( viewer not in creators ) )
then
hide( figure )
else
show( figure )
end
No real point for that. Anyone who knew how it use it wouldn't care
about seeing them, and unauthorized users get insulted ala Snape.
So, good ideas, bad ideas? Holes? Worst suggestions ever?
The marauders map was a good idea for Hary because I think it ended up
saving him from trouble, except when he got caught by Professor Umbridg.
Kryss
2004-01-03 10:53:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Troels Forchhammer
LIE PROS
SO PERIL
OR PLIES
PRO LIES
ISLE PRO
RISE POL
EL SPIRO
EL RIP SO
LEO RIPS
POLE SIR
IS PROLE
PIS LORE
LORE SIP
ROLE PSI
PI ROLES
LOSE RIP
RIP SOLE
ORE LIPS
ROE SLIP
ROSE LIP
EROS LIP
SORE LIP
PER SOIL
PRE OILS
RE POLIS
Post by Derek Driscoll
Post by andrea baker
Why was it that in the 2 years prior to the Prisoner of Azkaban,
neither Fred nor George ever noticed someone named Peter Pettigrew
following their brother around, when they viewed the Marauders' Map?
1. If the map shows everybody all the time, there would be hundreds
of names and dots on the map, limiting the chance of seeing Peter.
2. If the map only shows what the person needs, they would never see
Peter.
3. When would they be using the map? After hours when they're not
supposed to be out. In that case Ron is in his dorm. Why would Frend
and George be looking at Gryffindor tower when they are interested in
who's patrolling the halls?
4. Scabbers most likely spends all his time in Ron's room. For what
reason why F&G ever look to Ron's dorm room?
I have yet to see a convincing theory that can explain all the disparate
facts we know about the Marauder's map.
A: No one saw Peter Pettigrew in the two and a half years he spent in
Harry and Ron's dormitory and in Hagrid's hut.
B: Remus Lupin saw Peter Pettigrew when looking for Harry, Ron and
Hermione.
C: Harry saw Bartemius Crouch in Snape's office (under that name, but in
the form of Mad-Eye Moody), while certainly not expecting or looking
for him.
I assume Harry checked snape office to see if snape was here (apparently
profs sleep in their office...) but found crouch instead.
I think it's mind driven : you look for anyone at any place and it
zoom/pan/fill in the name you need.
I like the idea of programation but I prefer SQL : when you do a "select * "
to what is in a table but you don't know what to look for. After you refine
your search.

Select * from people
where location='Snape_Office'

Castle and towers have lots of floors, so the idea of a fixed map is not
possible (ever tried to edit level in quake or counterstrike with every
vertexes displayed... urg!!)
Post by Troels Forchhammer
D: A /new/ ink figure labelled "Harry Potter" had appeared when Harry
looked at the Map when standing in front of the statue of the one-eyed
witch.
Select * from tips_table
where hidden_location like '%one-eyed%'
Post by Troels Forchhammer
E: Lupin apparently saw only one each of Harry and Hermione when there was
actually both the normal and the time-travelling pair around - and
quite close to each other.
the database engine don't consistency check and returned only the first
occurence of Harry Potter

<Snip>

My explanations for A
No one thought of
Select * from people
where location='Gryffindor Tower'
and (sublocation = 'Common Room' Or 'Ron''s dorm')
Gryff tower is supposed to have at least 8 floors (plus bathtroom) so as I
said earlier, the map can't/won't display multiple floors (unless you ask
for it, but that unreadable)

For B
Lupin was looking for Harry, and being a bit worried after all was asing who
were with him.
(little funny game : Can you think of a valid SQL request to do this! be
warned this on is tricky :p )

Oh, why do I think of this, because where I worked, we had a locating
software (for placing user, computer, network plug and so on) wich work
exactly liked i described, and could be requetted with an simple user
interface or some SQL queries if you knew how... :) it's magic!!!

Kryss
--
"Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho ho."
Cornelius Fudge
2004-01-03 14:48:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kryss
Post by Troels Forchhammer
LIE PROS
SO PERIL
OR PLIES
PRO LIES
ISLE PRO
RISE POL
EL SPIRO
EL RIP SO
LEO RIPS
POLE SIR
IS PROLE
PIS LORE
LORE SIP
ROLE PSI
PI ROLES
LOSE RIP
RIP SOLE
ORE LIPS
ROE SLIP
ROSE LIP
EROS LIP
SORE LIP
PER SOIL
PRE OILS
RE POLIS
Post by Derek Driscoll
Post by andrea baker
Why was it that in the 2 years prior to the Prisoner of
Azkaban,
Post by Kryss
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Post by Derek Driscoll
Post by andrea baker
neither Fred nor George ever noticed someone named Peter
Pettigrew
Post by Kryss
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Post by Derek Driscoll
Post by andrea baker
following their brother around, when they viewed the
Marauders' Map?
Post by Kryss
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Post by Derek Driscoll
1. If the map shows everybody all the time, there would be hundreds
of names and dots on the map, limiting the chance of seeing Peter.
2. If the map only shows what the person needs, they would never see
Peter.
3. When would they be using the map? After hours when
they're not
Post by Kryss
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Post by Derek Driscoll
supposed to be out. In that case Ron is in his dorm. Why
would Frend
Post by Kryss
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Post by Derek Driscoll
and George be looking at Gryffindor tower when they are
interested in
Post by Kryss
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Post by Derek Driscoll
who's patrolling the halls?
4. Scabbers most likely spends all his time in Ron's room.
For what
Post by Kryss
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Post by Derek Driscoll
reason why F&G ever look to Ron's dorm room?
I have yet to see a convincing theory that can explain all the disparate
facts we know about the Marauder's map.
A: No one saw Peter Pettigrew in the two and a half years he
spent in
Post by Kryss
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Harry and Ron's dormitory and in Hagrid's hut.
B: Remus Lupin saw Peter Pettigrew when looking for Harry, Ron and
Hermione.
C: Harry saw Bartemius Crouch in Snape's office (under that
name, but in
Post by Kryss
Post by Troels Forchhammer
the form of Mad-Eye Moody), while certainly not expecting or looking
for him.
I assume Harry checked snape office to see if snape was here
(apparently
Post by Kryss
profs sleep in their office...) but found crouch instead.
I think it's mind driven : you look for anyone at any place and it
zoom/pan/fill in the name you need.
I like the idea of programation but I prefer SQL : when you do a "select * "
to what is in a table but you don't know what to look for. After you refine
your search.
Select * from people
where location='Snape_Office'
Castle and towers have lots of floors, so the idea of a fixed map is not
possible (ever tried to edit level in quake or counterstrike with every
vertexes displayed... urg!!)
Post by Troels Forchhammer
D: A /new/ ink figure labelled "Harry Potter" had appeared when Harry
looked at the Map when standing in front of the statue of the one-eyed
witch.
Select * from tips_table
where hidden_location like '%one-eyed%'
Post by Troels Forchhammer
E: Lupin apparently saw only one each of Harry and Hermione when there was
actually both the normal and the time-travelling pair
around - and
Post by Kryss
Post by Troels Forchhammer
quite close to each other.
the database engine don't consistency check and returned only the first
occurence of Harry Potter
<Snip>
My explanations for A
No one thought of
Select * from people
where location='Gryffindor Tower'
and (sublocation = 'Common Room' Or 'Ron''s dorm')
Gryff tower is supposed to have at least 8 floors (plus bathtroom) so as I
said earlier, the map can't/won't display multiple floors (unless you ask
for it, but that unreadable)
...or JKR thought up the idea of the map after books one and two
were already published and couldn't fix all the holes for book 3.
:P
Kryss
2004-01-03 19:01:47 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Cornelius Fudge
...or JKR thought up the idea of the map after books one and two
were already published and couldn't fix all the holes for book 3.
:P
yeah, that's more likely to be true ;)
Troels Forchhammer
2004-01-03 23:16:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kryss
Post by Cornelius Fudge
...or JKR thought up the idea of the map after books one and two
were already published and couldn't fix all the holes for book 3.
yeah, that's more likely to be true ;)
But it isn't much fun - there's far more challenge in acknowledging
this and then try to invent an explanation that would actually work.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is t.forch(a)mail.dk

"The idea of being *paid* to govern is terribly middle-class :-)"
- Igenlode on AFH-P
Toon
2004-01-04 08:13:33 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 00:16:30 +0100, Troels Forchhammer
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Post by Kryss
Post by Cornelius Fudge
...or JKR thought up the idea of the map after books one and two
were already published and couldn't fix all the holes for book 3.
yeah, that's more likely to be true ;)
But it isn't much fun - there's far more challenge in acknowledging
this and then try to invent an explanation that would actually work.
Look at the Threshers. I mean, really, by the end, Cedric's death had
sunk in. I refuse to believe he had those nightmares only after he
arrived home.
Kryss
2004-01-05 14:03:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toon
On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 00:16:30 +0100, Troels Forchhammer
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Post by Kryss
Post by Cornelius Fudge
...or JKR thought up the idea of the map after books one and two
were already published and couldn't fix all the holes for book 3.
yeah, that's more likely to be true ;)
But it isn't much fun - there's far more challenge in acknowledging
this and then try to invent an explanation that would actually work.
Look at the Threshers. I mean, really, by the end, Cedric's death had
sunk in. I refuse to believe he had those nightmares only after he
arrived home.
There was what, a week between Cedric's death and the return home?
He started to explain his friends what happened only in the very end of the
year, then the knigtmare started. Only when he told the story without a
potion buffer or anything that it really sunk in and I think he didn't
really accept it before.

kryss
Toon
2004-01-06 08:35:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kryss
Post by Toon
On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 00:16:30 +0100, Troels Forchhammer
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Post by Kryss
Post by Cornelius Fudge
...or JKR thought up the idea of the map after books one and two
were already published and couldn't fix all the holes for book 3.
yeah, that's more likely to be true ;)
But it isn't much fun - there's far more challenge in acknowledging
this and then try to invent an explanation that would actually work.
Look at the Threshers. I mean, really, by the end, Cedric's death had
sunk in. I refuse to believe he had those nightmares only after he
arrived home.
There was what, a week between Cedric's death and the return home?
He started to explain his friends what happened only in the very end of the
year, then the knigtmare started. Only when he told the story without a
potion buffer or anything that it really sunk in and I think he didn't
really accept it before.
kryss
I wish I called them Threstle,s not Threshers. i really really do. :(
Sirius Kase
2004-01-05 02:02:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by deb
<snip>
Post by Cornelius Fudge
...or JKR thought up the idea of the map after books one and two
were already published and couldn't fix all the holes for book 3.
:P
yeah, that's more likely to be true ;)
Apparently Rowling has the big ideas but doesn't sweat the details. If
she managed an engineering department, she need a squadron of underlings
to make her ideas look good.
--
Sirius Kase

"Drat!" exclaimed Voldemort, "beaten by a pair of deuces." SteveK of a.f.h-p
pluther
2004-01-18 18:54:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by andrea baker
Why was it that in the 2 years prior to the Prisoner of Azkaban,
neither Fred nor George ever noticed someone named Peter Pettigrew
following their brother around, when they viewed the Marauders' Map?
-Andrea Baker
Would the map necessarily show an animagus while in animal form?

Despite it's extreme usefulness, it does seem pretty simple, and thus
quite easy to fool. I don't think Snape would have had a problem reading
it if it hadn't had a specific anti-Snape charm put on it...

-Pat
--
Pat Luther -- pluther at usa dot net -- http://www.cs.pdx.edu/~pluther
Director: Geeks Without Borders: http://www.gwob.org
"It is our choices...that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
-Professor Dumbledore
Sirius Kase
2004-01-18 19:10:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by pluther
Post by andrea baker
Why was it that in the 2 years prior to the Prisoner of Azkaban,
neither Fred nor George ever noticed someone named Peter Pettigrew
following their brother around, when they viewed the Marauders' Map?
-Andrea Baker
Would the map necessarily show an animagus while in animal form?
Despite it's extreme usefulness, it does seem pretty simple, and thus
quite easy to fool. I don't think Snape would have had a problem reading
it if it hadn't had a specific anti-Snape charm put on it...
-Pat
Lupin saw Peter in Animagus form when the kids were dragged into the
Shrieking shack by Sirius who was also in Animagus form.

There has been talk that the map works differently for the original
marauders, but I think that is an unnecessary complication. I can
counter my own argument here in that the map apparently does know who is
looking at it in that it insults Snape and provides Harry with specific
information on how to open the tunnel to the sweet shop.
--
Sirius Kase

"Drat!" exclaimed Voldemort, "beaten by a pair of deuces." SteveK of a.f.h-p
Mark Evans
2004-01-18 21:31:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by pluther
Post by andrea baker
Why was it that in the 2 years prior to the Prisoner of Azkaban,
neither Fred nor George ever noticed someone named Peter Pettigrew
following their brother around, when they viewed the Marauders' Map?
-Andrea Baker
Would the map necessarily show an animagus while in animal form?
Unless considering they wouldn't want to bump into their Head of House
without warning that really should be part of the initial design
criteria...
t***@gmail.com
2016-08-01 12:25:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by pluther
Post by andrea baker
Why was it that in the 2 years prior to the Prisoner of Azkaban,
neither Fred nor George ever noticed someone named Peter Pettigrew
following their brother around, when they viewed the Marauders' Map?
-Andrea Baker
Would the map necessarily show an animagus while in animal form?
Despite it's extreme usefulness, it does seem pretty simple, and thus
quite easy to fool. I don't think Snape would have had a problem reading
it if it hadn't had a specific anti-Snape charm put on it...
Snape DID read it before coming to the Shrieking Shack!

t***@gmail.com
2016-08-01 12:22:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by andrea baker
Why was it that in the 2 years prior to the Prisoner of Azkaban,
neither Fred nor George ever noticed someone named Peter Pettigrew
following their brother around, when they viewed the Marauders' Map?
And when Sirius escaped, everyone at Hogwarts would have been briefed about his crimes, so would have learned who Peter Pettigrew was! Therefore, during year 3, Fred and George WOULD have recognized the name if they ever saw it! I expected that F and G would have frequently checked up on their bother Ron during year 3 to make certain that he was safe, and would have spotted Peter and come running! Why didn't that happen?

Also, F & G would have checked up on their brother during the great Chamber of Secrets scare during Year 2, so would have spotted Peter!
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