Kreacher is Gollum?

[Welsh Dog]

Strange how both these tortured creatures have this 'split'
personality that seems to demand they speak aloud as if nobody else
but them can hear what they are saying?

So many echoes in HP from so many other books.... ;)

Welshdog

[Fish Eye no Miko]

Post by Welsh Dog
Strange how both these tortured creatures have this
'split' personality

How does Kreature have a split personality?

Catherine Johnson.

[Welsh Dog]

Post by Fish Eye no Miko

Post by Welsh Dog
Strange how both these tortured creatures have this
'split' personality

How does Kreature have a split personality?

He has the desire of the elf to work for the master (Sirius) and the
family whilst at the same time wanting to have him killed - or at
least removed. He wanders the house in a paranoid state forced to do
one thing whilst desiring another... and all the time underneath it
seems he just wanted to be loved!!

Maybe 'split' isn't the right term, but it's more easily understood by
most people bearing in mind multiple personality syndrome isn't
understood properly even by the people who use it. :)

Welshdog

[IMS]

Post by Welsh Dog
Strange how both these tortured creatures have this 'split'
personality that seems to demand they speak aloud as if nobody else
but them can hear what they are saying?
So many echoes in HP from so many other books.... ;)
Welshdog

Personally I found Kreacher's 'about face' hard to belive. Maybe I
missed something but I don't remember a thing in the earlier books that
remotely hinted that Kreacher would 'change his spots.'

-IMS
-------------
"You only live once, but if you do it right, once is enough."
- Mae West

[Welsh Dog]

Post by IMS

Post by Welsh Dog
Strange how both these tortured creatures have this 'split'
personality that seems to demand they speak aloud as if nobody else
but them can hear what they are saying?
So many echoes in HP from so many other books.... ;)

Personally I found Kreacher's 'about face' hard to belive. Maybe I
missed something but I don't remember a thing in the earlier books that
remotely hinted that Kreacher would 'change his spots.'

On a theme... there is a section in LoR where the Gollum creature
guides Frodo and Sam through... a swamp... the Dead Marshes.

And what do they see in the dead marshes? The equivalent of Inferi...
in this case 'ghosts of the dead' visibly floating in the water
waiting to drag down unwary passers by.

But at least Gollum stayed trued to his own mostly horrible character
in the end. For him there was no redemption. Token's Christian beliefs
didn't stretch quite as far as JKR's perhaps?

Welshdog

[Fish Eye no Miko]

Post by Welsh Dog
On a theme... there is a section in LoR where the Gollum
creature guides Frodo and Sam through... a swamp... the
Dead Marshes.
And what do they see in the dead marshes? The equivalent
of Inferi... in this case 'ghosts of the dead' visibly floating
in the water waiting to drag down unwary passers by.

True.

Post by Welsh Dog
But at least Gollum stayed trued to his own mostly horrible
character in the end. For him there was no redemption. Token's
Christian beliefs didn't stretch quite as far as JKR's perhaps?

Bellatrix wasn't redeemed either. There are, in fact, several human
characters in the HP books who weren't. I'd hardly say that one
character's lack of redemption in LotR suggests that Tolkien's beliefs
were somehow wanting.
And remember, Gollum was under the Ring's influence for 500 years; do
you really think redemption was possible at that point? Besides, he
was far from a nice guy to begin with--he killed his friend to get the
Ring, after all. If you compare Gollum to Bella or Wormtail--people
who were close to Voldemort's corrupting influence--you're closer to
the mark than comparing him to Kreature.

Catherine Johnson.

[o***@earthlink.net]

Post by Fish Eye no Miko
True.

Post by Welsh Dog
But at least Gollum stayed trued to his own mostly horrible
character in the end. For him there was no redemption. Token's
Christian beliefs didn't stretch quite as far as JKR's perhaps?

Bellatrix wasn't redeemed either. There are, in fact, several human
characters in the HP books who weren't. I'd hardly say that one
character's lack of redemption in LotR suggests that Tolkien's beliefs
were somehow wanting.
And remember, Gollum was under the Ring's influence for 500 years; do
you really think redemption was possible at that point? Besides, he
was far from a nice guy to begin with--he killed his friend to get the
Ring, after all. If you compare Gollum to Bella or Wormtail--people
who were close to Voldemort's corrupting influence--you're closer to
the mark than comparing him to Kreature.

The resolution of the internal struggle between Smeagol and Gollum was
one of the comedies (in the classic Greek sense) of LoTR. Up until
his capture by the Gondolans at the pond he was coming along nicely.
Jackson did a really good job of presenting that conflict in the film.
whether Gollum would have won w/o this apparent betrayal is
questionable. He wouldn't have survived the Ring's destruction in any
event so the death of "Gollum" along with the Ring was probably the
only possible outcome.
--
Paleontologists recently announced they have
discovered when Man first discovered language:
Just after he invented the hammer and nail.

And it was BAD language.

[Welsh Dog]

Post by Fish Eye no Miko

Post by Welsh Dog
On a theme... there is a section in LoR where the Gollum
creature guides Frodo and Sam through... a swamp... the
Dead Marshes.
And what do they see in the dead marshes? The equivalent
of Inferi... in this case 'ghosts of the dead' visibly floating
in the water waiting to drag down unwary passers by.

True.

Post by Welsh Dog
But at least Gollum stayed trued to his own mostly horrible
character in the end. For him there was no redemption. Token's
Christian beliefs didn't stretch quite as far as JKR's perhaps?

Bellatrix wasn't redeemed either. There are, in fact, several human
characters in the HP books who weren't. I'd hardly say that one
character's lack of redemption in LotR suggests that Tolkien's beliefs
were somehow wanting.

I don't recall suggesting that Bella was redeemed... or that she was
given an opportunity for remorse. I was pointing out some
similarities' between plot artifacts in the two stories and comparing
the reactions of two characters as described by the authors.

Post by Fish Eye no Miko
And remember, Gollum was under the Ring's influence for 500 years; do
you really think redemption was possible at that point? Besides, he
was far from a nice guy to begin with--he killed his friend to get the
Ring, after all. If you compare Gollum to Bella or Wormtail--people
who were close to Voldemort's corrupting influence--you're closer to
the mark than comparing him to Kreature.

The ring simply amplified the worst parts of his character when it
made him kill Deagol. Tho... for a short moment... Gollum *was*
almost redeemed. :)

Anyway, we *can* compare Gollum to Kreature because of their roles in
the stories as one accompanying the 'heroes' thru horrible situations.
Regulus thru the Sea Cave with its Inferi, and Gollum guiding Frodo
and Sam thru the Dead Marshes.

And Gollum *did* stay true to his repulsive addiction to the ring
where Kreature was able to shake off the attraction to the 'dark
side'.

Both were offered 'love'... but where Kreature responded coming thru
to help Harry... Gollum rejected the friendship offered by Frodo and
he attacked him, finally dying for his treachery.

Welshdog

[Toon]

Post by IMS

Post by Welsh Dog
Strange how both these tortured creatures have this 'split'
personality that seems to demand they speak aloud as if nobody else
but them can hear what they are saying?
So many echoes in HP from so many other books.... ;)
Welshdog

Personally I found Kreacher's 'about face' hard to belive. Maybe I
missed something but I don't remember a thing in the earlier books that
remotely hinted that Kreacher would 'change his spots.'

How about the fact he wasn't a leopard?

Apparently, all he needed was a little love.

[Nuki Mouse]

Post by Welsh Dog
Strange how both these tortured creatures have this 'split'
personality that seems to demand they speak aloud as if nobody else
but them can hear what they are saying?
So many echoes in HP from so many other books.... ;)
Welshdog

Personally I found Kreacher's 'about face' hard to belive. Maybe I
missed something but I don't remember a thing in the earlier books that
remotely hinted that Kreacher would 'change his spots.'

Dumbledore's talk to Harry at the end of OotP, that Kreature needed to be
treated kindly. Kreature HATED Sirius and for good reason, Sirius treated
him like shit. Everyone else at 12 Grimmauld Place was a friend of Sirius
so why should he treat them nicely?

In DH Harry was now his master. He gave Kreature a mission (get Mundungus)
that meant Regulus didn't die in vain and helped Kreature complete Regulus's
last wish. Harry gave Kreature Regulus's locket, A Black Family heirloom of
his own. He treated Kreature nicely after hearing his story. Harry CARED
about Kreature and saw him as a being with feelings acute as of his own,
something Sirius never did.

While unexpected, I don't see anything too surprising that Kreature reacted
as he did.

Nuki Mouse

[o***@earthlink.net]

Post by Welsh Dog
Strange how both these tortured creatures have this 'split'
personality that seems to demand they speak aloud as if nobody else
but them can hear what they are saying?
So many echoes in HP from so many other books.... ;)

I thought Kreacher's reformation a bit contrived, myself. He'd been a
"bad" elf for so long that I didn't think he could be salvaged. It
would have been better if he had died of old age and Dobby and Winkie
had come to work for Harry instead. That would have cheered her up
and (ROT13 SPOILER) Qbool jbhyq unir unq n zber zrnavatshy ebyr va QU
guna whfg "Erq Fuveg".
--
Paleontologists recently announced they have
discovered when Man first discovered language:
Just after he invented the hammer and nail.

And it was BAD language.

[Toon]

Post by Welsh Dog
Strange how both these tortured creatures have this 'split'
personality that seems to demand they speak aloud as if nobody else
but them can hear what they are saying?

Yeah, being alone for years and years doesn't do that to you at all.

Post by Welsh Dog
So many echoes in HP from so many other books.... ;)

Only so many plot points available.

[Welsh Dog]

Post by Toon

Post by Welsh Dog
Strange how both these tortured creatures have this 'split'
personality that seems to demand they speak aloud as if nobody else
but them can hear what they are saying?

Yeah, being alone for years and years doesn't do that to you at all.

Doesn't it? I thought it might... ah well each to his own ideas I
suppose.

Post by Toon

Post by Welsh Dog
So many echoes in HP from so many other books.... ;)

Only so many plot points available.

Welshdog

[DrGong]

Well house-elves seem to be the simple type, and i could see him
loving potter for the simple fact that he gave him the black family
heirloom. He was less creepy then Luna's "Friends" bit...

[Brian Wakeling]

In a speech called

Post by DrGong
Well house-elves seem to be the simple type, and i could see him
loving potter for the simple fact that he gave him the black family
heirloom. He was less creepy then Luna's "Friends" bit...

How was that creepy? Luna was, until the DA, someone whom everybody
teased, bullied, picked on, etc. She felt isolated from her peer
group - no-one ever really tried to include her. So when she joins the
DA, it is her first real contact with people who accept her for who
she is and include her, and with people who do not pick on her. Harry,
as has been pointed out, was a good teacher for the DA. Ron and
Hermione are good friends of Harry (Hermione may have been
condescending and dismissive of Luna, but she recignised her worth
when she asked her to get her father to print Harry's interview in the
Quibbler). Ginny defended her company-desirability to Harry on the
Hogwarts Express. And Neville, we are told, was the only other person
for whom the DA was more than an extra class, and got the most from
it. Her bedroom decorations are not creepy, they are honouring the
first people from her peer group who have shown her any respect and
real interest.

[Nuki Mouse]

Post by Welsh Dog
Strange how both these tortured creatures have this 'split'
personality that seems to demand they speak aloud as if nobody else
but them can hear what they are saying?

I don't think Kreature had a split personality, he was just lonely from
living by himself for so many years and thus talked to himself. His
personality didn't change, nor was he actually evil or at least not until
Sirius's death. Even then I don't think he meant to cause Sirius's death
no matter how happy it made him.

Gollum also talked to himself for similar reasons, but was truly evil.
Started out by killing his best friend, did many murders since, even robbed
cradles IIRC. Gollum did seem to have a split personality, especially in
the movies (Jackson showing Gollum's 2 halves debating each other as if they
were 2 separate beings was excellent)

Nuki Mouse