GoF Question

Post by Ridge
Goblet of Fire & Order of the Phoenix questions ..
I'm sure this has been asked before but I'm trying to figure out why
in Goblet of Fire, Harry is questioned by the ministry regarding the
improper use of underage magic for blowing up his aunt and in the
OoTP, he's questioned for fending off the Demeanors but there seems to
be no reference to him being questioned for the duel with he how must
not be named.

Because the ministry didn't believe it happened.

Ron.

Ridge

2004-08-09 14:22:05 UTC

Because the ministry didn't believe it happened.
Ron.

It shouldn't have mattered in the Ministry 'believed' it or not, Harry
was an underage wizard, off Hogwarts grounds who used an Expeloramus
(sp) spell as well as "Impedimenta" (pg 580) and "Acashio".

The ministry should have detected it (as they do in OoTP) as they did
when Harry used the petronus charm, dobbies hover spell (which they
attribute to Harry) and blowing up his aunt.

dvh

2004-08-09 14:32:15 UTC

Because the ministry didn't believe it happened.
Ron.

It shouldn't have mattered in the Ministry 'believed' it or not, Harry
was an underage wizard, off Hogwarts grounds who used an Expeloramus
(sp) spell as well as "Impedimenta" (pg 580) and "Acashio".
The ministry should have detected it (as they do in OoTP) as they did
when Harry used the petronus charm, dobbies hover spell (which they
attribute to Harry) and blowing up his aunt.

You make a very good point. The only way in which I would think it
would be possible that the duel was ignored at the MoM, is this: (1)
Could V put some kind of shield charm around the graveyard so that his
actions could not be detected? or (2) someone at the MoM must be
responsible for monitoring illegal use of magic by minors. Perhaps that
person (if there is just one monitoring it at the hour of the duel) is
in V's pocket.

Ridge

2004-08-09 14:35:50 UTC

Because the ministry didn't believe it happened.
Ron.

It shouldn't have mattered in the Ministry 'believed' it or not, Harry
was an underage wizard, off Hogwarts grounds who used an Expeloramus
(sp) spell as well as "Impedimenta" (pg 580) and "Acashio".
The ministry should have detected it (as they do in OoTP) as they did
when Harry used the petronus charm, dobbies hover spell (which they
attribute to Harry) and blowing up his aunt.

lol, are you accusing Mafalda Hopkirk of being a Death Eater?

dvh

2004-08-09 16:07:18 UTC

Because the ministry didn't believe it happened.
Ron.

It shouldn't have mattered in the Ministry 'believed' it or not, Harry
was an underage wizard, off Hogwarts grounds who used an Expeloramus
(sp) spell as well as "Impedimenta" (pg 580) and "Acashio".
The ministry should have detected it (as they do in OoTP) as they did
when Harry used the petronus charm, dobbies hover spell (which they
attribute to Harry) and blowing up his aunt.

lol, are you accusing Mafalda Hopkirk of being a Death Eater?

Maybe! I guess I picture some clerk type person sitting at a desk
monitoring "magic traffic"; more likely an assistant than the chief. I
wonder how it is monitored; does a light flash or a bird squawk, or what?

Troels Forchhammer

2004-08-10 17:14:05 UTC

Post by Ridge
The ministry should have detected it (as they do in OoTP) as they
did when Harry used the petronus charm, dobbies hover spell
(which they attribute to Harry) and blowing up his aunt.

You make a very good point. The only way in which I would think
it would be possible that the duel was ignored at the MoM, is
(1) Could V put some kind of shield charm around the graveyard

[...]

Post by dvh
(2) someone at the MoM [...] is in V's pocket.

Or
(3) Privet Drive in particular and Little Whinging in general is under
intensified surveillance. Originally for Harry's protection, but
later ... ?

" 'We have no record of any witch or wizard living in Little
Whinging, other than Harry Potter,' said Madam Bones at once.
'That situation has always been closely monitored, given ...
given past events.'"
(OotP-8 'The Hearing')

Other exceptions that they have overlooked includes Hermione practicing
spells before she started at Hogwarts and (probably) the Weasley twins
experimenting. It is hardly likely that they have the entirety of Great
Britain under surveillance as they have also obviously overlooked
several uses of Unforgivable Curses by Voldemort.

It is, however, clear that their surveillance can only tell what spell
has been used, not who cast it (Dobby's Hovering Charm), and
consequently even if they detected the spells Harry cast that night
they would have to know that he were there, and somehow be able to tell
that he was the only possible source for these spells.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of
wisdom.
- Gandalf, 'LotR' (J.R.R. Tolkien)

Kenneth Singhel

2004-08-10 23:55:00 UTC

Post by Troels Forchhammer
It is, however, clear that their surveillance can only tell what spell
has been used, not who cast it (Dobby's Hovering Charm), and
consequently even if they detected the spells Harry cast that night
they would have to know that he were there, and somehow be able to tell
that he was the only possible source for these spells.

The Ministry could have determined if Harry was the source of the hover
charm if they used the prior incantato spell on Harry's wand. it should
have been easy to prove he didn't do it

-KJS

bubblybabs

2004-08-11 20:34:51 UTC

Post by Kenneth Singhel

The Ministry could have determined if Harry was the source of the hover
charm if they used the prior incantato spell on Harry's wand. it should
have been easy to prove he didn't do it
-KJS

Ah but Harry blew up his Aunt w/o his wand...
Babs

Jenny Radcliffe

2004-08-18 23:14:31 UTC

Post by Troels Forchhammer

Post by Ridge
The ministry should have detected it (as they do in OoTP) as they
did when Harry used the petronus charm, dobbies hover spell
(which they attribute to Harry) and blowing up his aunt.

You make a very good point. The only way in which I would think
it would be possible that the duel was ignored at the MoM, is
(1) Could V put some kind of shield charm around the graveyard

[...]

Post by dvh
(2) someone at the MoM [...] is in V's pocket.

Or
(3) Privet Drive in particular and Little Whinging in general is under
intensified surveillance. Originally for Harry's protection, but
later ... ?

Further Or:

The "underage monitoring" is only "switched on" out of term.

But I agree with the most likely explanation - because I think it's the
simplest that fits the facts - is that they're watching Privet Drive/Little
Whinging for magic.

Jenny

Karen Savage

2004-08-09 15:34:00 UTC

Because the ministry didn't believe it happened.
Ron.

It shouldn't have mattered in the Ministry 'believed' it or not, Harry
was an underage wizard, off Hogwarts grounds who used an Expeloramus
(sp) spell as well as "Impedimenta" (pg 580) and "Acashio".
The ministry should have detected it (as they do in OoTP) as they did
when Harry used the petronus charm, dobbies hover spell (which they
attribute to Harry) and blowing up his aunt.

I disagree, because of the time of year. The students are given the notices
against performing magic when they leave for the holidays. There's nothing
in the books to indicate that minors are being monitored during the school
year (all the times Harry's been caught he's been at Privet Drive during the
holidays). My assumption is that they assume that the students are being
monitored by their teachers then.

--
Karen S.

HPCode(v.1.1) - R PS++COS++*POA+++GOF+++OOTP+++FF= QC
AR+++AT+++CM+CH+++DD++HB+++HM=PO+++TR+++HP/Gi-RW/He

Ridge

2004-08-09 15:54:52 UTC

On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 10:34:00 -0500, "Karen Savage"

Post by Karen Savage

Because the ministry didn't believe it happened.
Ron.

It shouldn't have mattered in the Ministry 'believed' it or not, Harry
was an underage wizard, off Hogwarts grounds who used an Expeloramus
(sp) spell as well as "Impedimenta" (pg 580) and "Acashio".
The ministry should have detected it (as they do in OoTP) as they did
when Harry used the petronus charm, dobbies hover spell (which they
attribute to Harry) and blowing up his aunt.

hhmm ... maybe, I can see that.

Dark Magic

2004-08-09 20:21:27 UTC

Post by Karen Savage
I disagree, because of the time of year. The students are given the notices
against performing magic when they leave for the holidays. There's nothing
in the books to indicate that minors are being monitored during the school
year (all the times Harry's been caught he's been at Privet Drive during the
holidays). My assumption is that they assume that the students are being
monitored by their teachers then.

That wouldn't be a bad assumption if it weren't for the fact that we know
the Ministry knows not only what spells are used, but where they take place
as well. *Any* sort of magic taking place in an exlusively Muggle location,
as a graveyard at midnight must be termed to be, should attract the
attention of the Ministry officials, whose job it is not only to monitor the
use of underage magic, but to ensure that *no* magic is being done that
would alarm or harm the Muggle population.

There was some serious magical mojo going on in that graveyard that night,
and the only possible conclusion is that the person whose job it is to
monitor magic was somebody inside the graveyard that night with Harry and
Voldemort.

Shannon

bubblybabs

2004-08-10 03:17:39 UTC

Post by Karen Savage

Post by Karen Savage
I disagree, because of the time of year. The students are given the

notices

Post by Karen Savage
against performing magic when they leave for the holidays. There's nothing
in the books to indicate that minors are being monitored during the school
year (all the times Harry's been caught he's been at Privet Drive during

the

Post by Karen Savage
holidays). My assumption is that they assume that the students are being
monitored by their teachers then.

That wouldn't be a bad assumption if it weren't for the fact that we know
the Ministry knows not only what spells are used, but where they take place
as well. *Any* sort of magic taking place in an exlusively Muggle location,
as a graveyard at midnight must be termed to be, should attract the
attention of the Ministry officials, whose job it is not only to monitor the
use of underage magic, but to ensure that *no* magic is being done that
would alarm or harm the Muggle population.
There was some serious magical mojo going on in that graveyard that night,
and the only possible conclusion is that the person whose job it is to
monitor magic was somebody inside the graveyard that night with Harry and
Voldemort.
Shannon

You would also think that if they can monitor underage magic that they can
monitor the AK, Cruciatus, and Imperious curses of adults as well...

Since they monitor where Harry lives pretty well it's possible that that is
how they are catching him/Dobby doing the spells at Privet Drive while not
elsewhere...

Babs

Jan van Aalderen

2004-08-10 10:55:51 UTC

bubblybabs wrote:
.........

Post by bubblybabs
You would also think that if they can monitor underage magic that they can
monitor the AK, Cruciatus, and Imperious curses of adults as well...

But they can not. If magic is detected in an area they monitor, they
simply find the nearest underage wizzard guilty of performing it (Dobbey
in CoS, Harry is found guilty without being heared), unless he can proof
his innocent which they than dislike accepting anyway (OotP, where in
spite of rocksolid proof of innocence, some still want to convict
Harry). Apparently, the justice system in the wizzarding world is very
poorly. Sirius' 12 years in Azkeban without trial also provide clear
evidence of that.

Possibly, their were no wizzards, at least no minors, living near that
graveyard, and therefore no particular reason to monitor that area.

However, otoh, owls can locate anyone anywhere, which indicates that
monitoring of wizzarding-activities needs not be limited to certain
area's. So it would certainly not be imposible to detect the activities
at that graveyard. Unless, of course, either nobody was watching or
noone took notice.

Post by bubblybabs
Since they monitor where Harry lives pretty well it's possible that that is
how they are catching him/Dobby doing the spells at Privet Drive while not
elsewhere...
Babs

--
Vriendelijke groet,
Jan van Aalderen, Amstelveen
*-------------------------------------------------------------*
Wie mijn raad volgt, doet zulks geheel op eigen risico!
Reactie op usenetpostjes svp in de groep. Email zal bouncen.
*-------------------------------------------------------------*

Ridge

2004-08-10 12:19:56 UTC

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:55:51 +0200, Jan van Aalderen

Post by Jan van Aalderen
However, otoh, owls can locate anyone anywhere, which indicates that

then why can't the ministry find Serious?

bubblybabs

2004-08-10 12:32:53 UTC

Post by Ridge
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:55:51 +0200, Jan van Aalderen

Post by Jan van Aalderen
However, otoh, owls can locate anyone anywhere, which indicates that

then why can't the ministry find Serious?

Perhaps the owls have a homing beaken within them that the MoM can't
utilize? You'd think the MoM would merely send an owl to a wanted person
(such as Sirius) and then follow the owl...

Good point you brought up...

Babs

James A. Wolf

2004-08-10 13:29:52 UTC

Post by Ridge
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:55:51 +0200, Jan van Aalderen

Post by Jan van Aalderen
However, otoh, owls can locate anyone anywhere, which indicates that

then why can't the ministry find Serious?

Because they're silly?

Actually, as JKR said on her site, jut like the way a wizard can make
land unplottable, he an make himself untraceable.

--
<*> James A. Wolf - ***@comcast.net <*>

"The jawbone of an ass is | "We have learned that terrorist attacks are not
just as dangerous a weapon| caused by the use of strength; they are invited
today as in Samson's time | by the perception of weakness."
Richard M. Nixon | George W. Bush

Louis Epstein

2004-08-10 16:51:30 UTC

Post by Ridge
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:55:51 +0200, Jan van Aalderen

Post by Jan van Aalderen
However, otoh, owls can locate anyone anywhere, which indicates that

then why can't the ministry find Serious?

Because they're silly?
Actually, as JKR said on her site, jut like the way a wizard can make
land unplottable, he an make himself untraceable.

Makes it easy to skip out on your bills,eh?

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

Ard Rhi

2004-08-10 17:49:44 UTC

Post by Louis Epstein

Post by Ridge
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:55:51 +0200, Jan van Aalderen

Post by Jan van Aalderen
However, otoh, owls can locate anyone anywhere, which indicates that

then why can't the ministry find Serious?

Because they're silly?
Actually, as JKR said on her site, jut like the way a wizard can make
land unplottable, he an make himself untraceable.

Makes it easy to skip out on your bills,eh?
-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

Not really. Don't pay but you get your stuff taken...

Ard Rhi

James A. Wolf

2004-08-10 23:44:04 UTC

Post by Louis Epstein

Post by Ridge
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:55:51 +0200, Jan van Aalderen

Post by Jan van Aalderen
However, otoh, owls can locate anyone anywhere, which indicates that

then why can't the ministry find Serious?

Because they're silly?
Actually, as JKR said on her site, jut like the way a wizard can make
land unplottable, he an make himself untraceable.

Makes it easy to skip out on your bills,eh?

More like dodging subpeomas from the Wizengamot!

drusilla

2004-08-11 15:56:29 UTC

Post by Ridge
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:55:51 +0200, Jan van Aalderen

Post by Jan van Aalderen
However, otoh, owls can locate anyone anywhere, which indicates that

then why can't the ministry find Serious?

Because they're silly?
Actually, as JKR said on her site, jut like the way a wizard can make
land unplottable, he an make himself untraceable.

THen, how is that he gets letters from Harry?

James A. Wolf

2004-08-11 23:53:01 UTC

Post by drusilla

Post by Ridge
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:55:51 +0200, Jan van Aalderen

Post by Jan van Aalderen
However, otoh, owls can locate anyone anywhere, which indicates that

then why can't the ministry find Serious?

Because they're silly?
Actually, as JKR said on her site, jut like the way a wizard can make
land unplottable, he an make himself untraceable.

THen, how is that he gets letters from Harry?

He's untraceable as 'Sirius Black,' not as 'Snuffles.'

Toon

2004-08-12 10:02:09 UTC

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 23:53:01 GMT, James A. Wolf

Post by drusilla

Post by Ridge
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:55:51 +0200, Jan van Aalderen

Post by Jan van Aalderen
However, otoh, owls can locate anyone anywhere, which indicates that

then why can't the ministry find Serious?

Because they're silly?
Actually, as JKR said on her site, jut like the way a wizard can make
land unplottable, he an make himself untraceable.

THen, how is that he gets letters from Harry?

He's untraceable as 'Sirius Black,' not as 'Snuffles.'

I believe harry tells hedwig to ignore the name and go find Sirius.
----
Free Report: How To Write A Book in 14 Days or Less! http://www.mcssl.com/app/aftrack.asp?afid=114999

----

Dark Magic

2004-08-11 22:51:08 UTC

Post by Ridge
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:55:51 +0200, Jan van Aalderen

Post by Jan van Aalderen
However, otoh, owls can locate anyone anywhere, which indicates that

then why can't the ministry find Serious?

Because they're silly?
Actually, as JKR said on her site, jut like the way a wizard can make
land unplottable, he an make himself untraceable.

If a wizard can make themselves untraceable why did Sirius Black need to
live in a cave near Hogwarts? Why not just go home to the Black family
homestead? Why bother watching the Floo Network at Hogwarts if the wizard
on the other end is untraceable anyway? Why have Sirius Black confined to
his own house when he could be out and about aiding the Order untraceable?

Another plot filler that makes *no* sense.

Shannon

Ridge

2004-08-11 22:56:34 UTC

Post by Ridge
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:55:51 +0200, Jan van Aalderen

Post by Jan van Aalderen
However, otoh, owls can locate anyone anywhere, which indicates that

then why can't the ministry find Serious?

Because they're silly?
Actually, as JKR said on her site, jut like the way a wizard can make
land unplottable, he an make himself untraceable.

lol .. yeah, there's plot holes in it but nothing you can't dispatch
with an "it's just a book" answer.

On the other hand, my wife recommended that anybody looking to become
an Aurora might want to consider becoming an animungus ... and
choosing an owl, they always seem to know where Serious is.

My question was, why don't they just send Serious a parcel & make the
nifty contents of said parcel a port key ... that'd be an easy way to
round up rogue wizards, wouldn't it?

chimaera

2004-08-12 02:11:15 UTC

LOL -- great idea! You oughtta work in law enforcement.

Hmmm ... your name is "Ridge" ... maybe you do?

Post by Ridge
My question was, why don't they just send Serious a parcel & make the
nifty contents of said parcel a port key ... that'd be an easy way to
round up rogue wizards, wouldn't it?

Ridge

2004-08-12 12:50:29 UTC

Post by chimaera
LOL -- great idea! You oughtta work in law enforcement.
Hmmm ... your name is "Ridge" ... maybe you do?

nope .. design & creative type stuff. hence spending too much time on
the Internet.

lensman1955

2004-08-12 09:48:23 UTC

Post by Ridge
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:55:51 +0200, Jan van Aalderen

Post by Jan van Aalderen
However, otoh, owls can locate anyone anywhere, which indicates that

then why can't the ministry find Serious?

Because they're silly?
Actually, as JKR said on her site, jut like the way a wizard can make
land unplottable, he an make himself untraceable.

lol .. yeah, there's plot holes in it but nothing you can't dispatch
with an "it's just a book" answer.
On the other hand, my wife recommended that anybody looking to become
an Aurora might want to consider becoming an animungus ... and
choosing an owl, they always seem to know where Serious is.
My question was, why don't they just send Serious a parcel & make the
nifty contents of said parcel a port key ... that'd be an easy way to
round up rogue wizards, wouldn't it?

Be like wizard spam. If I got a package I wasn't expecting from
someone I didn't know, I wouldn't open it! (And if they knew to put
Harry's name on it, I'd check with Harry BEFORE opening it.)

Ridge

2004-08-12 12:55:28 UTC

Post by lensman1955

Post by Ridge
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:55:51 +0200, Jan van Aalderen

Post by Jan van Aalderen
However, otoh, owls can locate anyone anywhere, which indicates that

then why can't the ministry find Serious?

Because they're silly?
Actually, as JKR said on her site, jut like the way a wizard can make
land unplottable, he an make himself untraceable.

lol .. yeah, there's plot holes in it but nothing you can't dispatch
with an "it's just a book" answer.
On the other hand, my wife recommended that anybody looking to become
an Aurora might want to consider becoming an animungus ... and
choosing an owl, they always seem to know where Serious is.
My question was, why don't they just send Serious a parcel & make the
nifty contents of said parcel a port key ... that'd be an easy way to
round up rogue wizards, wouldn't it?

Be like wizard spam. If I got a package I wasn't expecting from
someone I didn't know, I wouldn't open it! (And if they knew to put
Harry's name on it, I'd check with Harry BEFORE opening it.)

are there return addresses on owl mail? after all, it's not like the
owl doesn't know where to return it, besides, poor SB is so lonely &
bored in OoTP that he'd read a tea bag if it gave him something to do.

Mark Evans

2004-08-20 10:43:24 UTC

Post by Ridge
My question was, why don't they just send Serious a parcel & make the
nifty contents of said parcel a port key ... that'd be an easy way to
round up rogue wizards, wouldn't it?

If it were that simple the Wormtail would be likely to get a "free
sample" from WWW.

lensman1955

2004-08-12 09:46:37 UTC

Post by Ridge
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:55:51 +0200, Jan van Aalderen

Post by Jan van Aalderen
However, otoh, owls can locate anyone anywhere, which indicates that

then why can't the ministry find Serious?

Because they're silly?
Actually, as JKR said on her site, jut like the way a wizard can make
land unplottable, he an make himself untraceable.

While they couldn't find him through "owls," they could still spot him
on the street. Besides, this is still just a fantasy people, let's not
whip it to death trying to shoot down all the plot holes!

Toon

2004-08-12 10:01:05 UTC

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 18:51:08 -0400, "Dark Magic"

Post by Ridge
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:55:51 +0200, Jan van Aalderen

Post by Jan van Aalderen
However, otoh, owls can locate anyone anywhere, which indicates that

then why can't the ministry find Serious?

Because they're silly?
Actually, as JKR said on her site, jut like the way a wizard can make
land unplottable, he an make himself untraceable.

He hates it there.
----
Free Report: How To Write A Book in 14 Days or Less! http://www.mcssl.com/app/aftrack.asp?afid=114999

----

tuxgeo

2004-08-12 17:42:28 UTC

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 18:51:08 -0400, "Dark Magic"
<***@yahoo.com> wrote:

Spoilers for OOtP follow the earlier quotes.

Post by Ridge
On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:55:51 +0200, Jan van Aalderen

Post by Jan van Aalderen
However, otoh, owls can locate anyone anywhere, which indicates that

then why can't the ministry find Serious?

Because they're silly?
Actually, as JKR said on her site, jut like the way a wizard can make
land unplottable, he an make himself untraceable.

Re: ". . . why did Sirius Black need to live in a cave near Hogwarts?
Why not just go home to the Black family homestead":

I doubt that Sirius had free access to the Black house during GoF.
Reason for this doubt: At the end of GoF, Dumbledore gave orders
to contact "the old crowd" -- meaning that he was recommissioning
the Order of the Phoenix as of that time. The Order apparently
did not start to clean the old, Dark-Arts stuff out of Sirius'
house until the summer following the events in GoF. This suggests
to me that Dumbledore and Sirius didn't confirm his mother's
having died until then, and that Dumbledore didn't get Sirius'
permission to convert the house into the headquarters of the Order
until then -- i.e. *after* GoF.
So it's likely a timing issue: SB stayed in the cave during GoF
because he thought that he didn't dare to go home at that time,
on the off chance that his mother might still be alive and still
living there.

Also, during the Tournament Sirius wanted to be close enough to the
school to give Harry a chance (or potentially several chances) to
visit him in person.

--
***@teleport.com "tuxgeo" of the Jungle -- /the moonbeam knave/
(eh?)
o_!_o Idiosyncratically building a life with UseNet posts & moonbeams
/O\ ( now fortified with Mozilla for added idiosyncracy )

Weird Beard

2004-08-09 14:18:26 UTC

A: There's magical survellence around Privet Drive (It's not even that
accurate, since he was accused of a house-elf's act), but possibly not
elsewhere.
B: Accusing him of dueling with Voldy would destroy their entire case
against Dumbledore and Harry.

Ridge

2004-08-09 14:33:24 UTC

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 14:18:26 GMT, Weird Beard

hhmm ... could be.

I can't imagine the Ministry depends on such a vague 'monitor this
area' approach however. Ms. Figgs says the Ministry has their own way
of monitoring underage magic, an area effect would be useless to catch
Fred and George at home as it could just as easily be Mrs. Weasley.

As for the graveyard fight, they have a dead student (with no outward
trauma) and a student who claims he was killed via a dark arts spell.
At the very least, the Ministry would have questions for Harry on this
one and Cedrics parents would certainly have pushed for Harry to be
charged.

That said, they could easily ignore it because they don't want to
believe him.

2004-08-09 18:06:41 UTC

Post by Ridge
On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 14:18:26 GMT, Weird Beard

I don't think that Fred and George (or anyone else for that matter) has been
accused of using magic while underage. The "monitor this area" approach
could explain this, as you pointed out, since any kid's use magic at home
would be attributed to the parents. It also explains why Harry gets blamed
for Dobby's use of magic -- since Harry's the only wizard in Little Whinging
(see OotP, Ch. 8.), any magic detected in Little Whinging must be caused by
him.

Post by Ridge
As for the graveyard fight, they have a dead student (with no outward
trauma) and a student who claims he was killed via a dark arts spell.
At the very least, the Ministry would have questions for Harry on this
one and Cedrics parents would certainly have pushed for Harry to be
charged.
That said, they could easily ignore it because they don't want to
believe him.

Fudge does investigate -- sort of (see GoF, Ch. 36.) -- and the Diggorys
seem to accept Harry's version of what happened (see GoF, Ch. 37.). Fudge
is comfortable with his version and the Diggorys accept the truth. So,
everyone is satisfied.

mc

Ernest W. Dotson

2004-08-09 22:49:28 UTC

Post by Ridge
On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 14:18:26 GMT, Weird Beard

But at the same time, we have quite a bit of evidence of underage wizard
types who do magic with no repurcussions. Fred and George performed all
sorts of unsupervised magic out of school. Petunia accuses Lily of doing
all sorts of magic between terms. We know that Hermione cast actual,
willful spells prior to her first coming to Hogwarts. The Ministry having
extra monitoring wards put up around Privet Drive strikes me as pretty
darned sensible.

Well, do recall that the Diggorys stated they didn't blame Harry and were,
in fact, grateful to him for having returned Cedric's body. As far as the
Ministry goes, I believe it's a simple matter of them wanting to keep things
quiet about what did or didn't go on that night. Recall, if you will, how
livid Umbrage was when Harry gave his interview with the Quibbler in OotP.
Had the Ministry tried to press charges against Harry for what happened that
night, I don't think they could have avoided Harry's side of the story
coming out. Far better for them to gradually discredit him over the course
of the summer and nail him for something relatitively harmless, supporting
the sense of him that they had promulgated.

One more thought. Even if we assume that the Ministry can normally detect
all underage magic, I think it's quite likely that they wouldn't have been
able to detect what happened in the graveyard scene. Remember the Voldemort
quite emphatically did not want his return to be generally known. It would
make a great deal of sense that he would have had Wormtail cast any
necessary spells to block any sort of magical surveilance of his
resurrection. I would imagine that blocking any traces of Harry's wandwork
would be a side-effect.

bubblybabs

2004-08-10 03:19:28 UTC

Post by Ernest W. Dotson

Post by Ridge
On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 14:18:26 GMT, Weird Beard

Well, do recall that the Diggorys stated they didn't blame Harry and were,
in fact, grateful to him for having returned Cedric's body. As far as the
Ministry goes, I believe it's a simple matter of them wanting to keep things
quiet about what did or didn't go on that night. Recall, if you will, how
livid Umbrage was when Harry gave his interview with the Quibbler in OotP.
Had the Ministry tried to press charges against Harry for what happened that
night, I don't think they could have avoided Harry's side of the story
coming out. Far better for them to gradually discredit him over the course
of the summer and nail him for something relatitively harmless, supporting
the sense of him that they had promulgated.
One more thought. Even if we assume that the Ministry can normally detect
all underage magic, I think it's quite likely that they wouldn't have been
able to detect what happened in the graveyard scene. Remember the Voldemort
quite emphatically did not want his return to be generally known. It would
make a great deal of sense that he would have had Wormtail cast any
necessary spells to block any sort of magical surveilance of his
resurrection. I would imagine that blocking any traces of Harry's wandwork
would be a side-effect.

Good point...
Babs

FabulousDisneyBabe.com

2004-08-10 23:02:30 UTC

Post by Ernest W. Dotson

I wonder where the Diggorys were when Harry was getting reamed in the press and
by the MoM. Amos works at the MoM, right?

Fab

Save a broomstick - ride a wizard!
New home of the DISappointed: http://www.fabulousdisneybabe.com/forums
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Ridge

2004-08-12 14:22:33 UTC

Post by FabulousDisneyBabe.com

Post by Ernest W. Dotson
Well, do recall that the Diggorys stated they didn't blame Harry and were,
in fact, grateful to him for having returned Cedric's body. As far as the
Ministry goes, I believe it's a simple matter of them wanting to keep things
quiet about what did or didn't go on that night.

I wonder where the Diggorys were when Harry was getting reamed in the press and
by the MoM. Amos works at the MoM, right?

I've wondered that too,the problem with the Ministry thinking is
(imho) is that there's a clear chain of events:

Harry and Cedric grab the cup
The cup is a portkey, they both disappear
Time passes
Harry and Cedric reappear, Cedric is dead.

If the MoM accepts these events as presented, Harry must be asked how
Cedric died, I'm not sure if they can tell how Cedric died (ie the
spell cast on him) but, when Harry explains the whole V. thing, the
ministry only has two real choices ...

1) Cedric died by Wormtails use of a spell
2) Cedric died by Harrys use of a spell

If it's #1, they'd support Harry if it's #2 they'd arrest him.

I'm not comfortable with the third option which is that they agree
Cedric is dead but choose to blame nobody, parents don't handle it
well when their children die and nobody cares.

Don Reeves

2004-08-12 21:11:03 UTC

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 14:22:33 GMT, Ridge

Post by FabulousDisneyBabe.com

I wonder where the Diggorys were when Harry was getting reamed in the press and
by the MoM. Amos works at the MoM, right?

I've wondered that too,the problem with the Ministry thinking is
Harry and Cedric grab the cup
The cup is a portkey, they both disappear
Time passes
Harry and Cedric reappear, Cedric is dead.
If the MoM accepts these events as presented, Harry must be asked how
Cedric died, I'm not sure if they can tell how Cedric died (ie the
spell cast on him) but, when Harry explains the whole V. thing, the
ministry only has two real choices ...
1) Cedric died by Wormtails use of a spell
2) Cedric died by Harrys use of a spell
If it's #1, they'd support Harry if it's #2 they'd arrest him.
I'm not comfortable with the third option which is that they agree
Cedric is dead but choose to blame nobody, parents don't handle it
well when their children die and nobody cares.

I think it's Hermione that tells Harry that the spectators couldn't
see what happened in the maze. (Does anyone remember exactly where
this passage is?) Harry just showed up outside of it with Cedric's
body. The Ministry's official belief is that Cedric was killed
accidentally during the course of the tournament.

Don Reeves

Toon

2004-08-13 10:08:53 UTC

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 14:22:33 GMT, Ridge

Post by FabulousDisneyBabe.com

I wonder where the Diggorys were when Harry was getting reamed in the press and
by the MoM. Amos works at the MoM, right?

Maybe something happened, and an embarrassed Harry is lying to cover
up his failure to react in time, or Cedric's bonehead mood.
----
Free Report: How To Write A Book in 14 Days or Less! http://www.mcssl.com/app/aftrack.asp?afid=114999

----

Frank Winans

2004-08-09 17:00:21 UTC

C. Some of the deatheaters may have teaching credentials, so that
their presence suppresses underage magic alarms.

Ridge

2004-08-10 12:44:30 UTC

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 14:18:26 GMT, Weird Beard

A: There's magical survellence around Privet Drive (It's not even that
accurate, since he was accused of a house-elf's act), but possibly not
elsewhere.

it couldn't be an area surveillance around Privet Drive because
Mundungus was there & he used magic just prior to Harry using magic
but Harry wasn't accused of apparating.

Post by Weird Beard
B: Accusing him of dueling with Voldy would destroy their entire case
against Dumbledore and Harry.

I think it makes sense now that Vol. must have had a barrier around
the grave yard to discourage Aroras.

T.M. Sommers

2004-08-09 18:00:47 UTC

If the Ministry can detect underage magic, it can probably also
detect the use of the unforgiveables. Therefore, V would have to
take measures to protect himself from such detection. Since V
has successfully avoided detection for so long, we can conclude
that those measures are effective.

--
Thomas M. Sommers -- ***@nj.net -- AB2SB

bubblybabs

2004-08-10 03:20:37 UTC

Post by T.M. Sommers

Only thing is that Barty/Moody didn't get in trouble for using the Imperious
Curse on the students... It would be odd that the MoM would allow that to
happen...
Babs

Jan van Aalderen

2004-08-10 11:01:19 UTC

bubblybabs wrote:
........

Post by bubblybabs
Only thing is that Barty/Moody didn't get in trouble for using the Imperious
Curse on the students... It would be odd that the MoM would allow that to
happen...
Babs

a) That was at Hogwarts
b) DD gave him permission

bubblybabs

2004-08-10 12:27:42 UTC

Post by Jan van Aalderen
........

Post by bubblybabs
Only thing is that Barty/Moody didn't get in trouble for using the Imperious
Curse on the students... It would be odd that the MoM would allow that to
happen...
Babs

a) That was at Hogwarts
b) DD gave him permission

Yeah, but still.... Just odd... But then, Fudge did comment he didn't
agree with how DD ran the school... Perhaps that was one of those straws
about to break the camels back...

Babs

T.M. Sommers

2004-08-14 04:35:01 UTC

Post by bubblybabs

Post by T.M. Sommers

Post by Ridge
Goblet of Fire & Order of the Phoenix questions ..

Only thing is that Barty/Moody didn't get in trouble for using the Imperious
Curse on the students... It would be odd that the MoM would allow that to
happen...

Hogwarts probably has some sort of protection against
surveillance. Nobody seemed to notice that Krum used crucio on
Cedirc. Certainly the underage-magic detectors are turned off there.

--
Thomas M. Sommers -- ***@nj.net -- AB2SB

Ard Rhi

2004-08-10 04:43:38 UTC

It can be surmised that Voldemort or Wormtail placed a spell around the area
to make themselves untraceable. After all, it wouldn't do to be interrupted
or caught at that critical juncture.On the other hand, the Ministry could
simply ignore it because they believed it was all some scheme of Potter's
and Dumbledore's which investigating could lead to panic and Fudge being
removed if "somehow" evidence proved their story. Much like in Order of the
Phoenix, Fudge was clever enough to bury certain stories and ignore others
(like how dementors had gotten into Little Whinging) until he could
discredit Harry. Either way, not too much of a stretch since we know that
Voldemort managed to evade the Ministry's attention for a year, then. The
incident above is just another aspect of that.

Ard Rhi

danobats

2004-08-11 09:02:46 UTC

With Voldy and the Death Eaters, there's really no need to trace the Avada
Kedavra Curse cuz they always shot the dark mark into the air after they
used it.
Does anyone remember anything from the books about people using magic
while their at Hogsmeade?

drusilla

2004-08-11 15:39:16 UTC

Post by danobats
With Voldy and the Death Eaters, there's really no need to trace the Avada
Kedavra Curse cuz they always shot the dark mark into the air after they
used it.
Does anyone remember anything from the books about people using magic
while their at Hogsmeade?

Yes. Hermione cast something to move tree to cover Harry in the 3Broomsticks.

Klaus Winkler

2004-08-11 16:08:57 UTC

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 13:16:52 GMT, Ridge

IMHO the whole underage magic law is a waste of parchment.

Obviously, the only cases where anyone gets caught is Harry while he
is at Privet Drive.

Other than that, there doesn't seem to be any real enforcement of the
law, examples
- Lily doing magic "turning teacups to rats"
- Hermione "trying a few spells" (technically before she got the
year-end letter, but still)
- Fred and George

Ridge

2004-08-11 16:33:29 UTC

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 18:08:57 +0200, Klaus Winkler

Post by Klaus Winkler
On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 13:16:52 GMT, Ridge

IMHO the whole underage magic law is a waste of parchment.
Obviously, the only cases where anyone gets caught is Harry while he
is at Privet Drive.
Other than that, there doesn't seem to be any real enforcement of the
law, examples
- Lily doing magic "turning teacups to rats"
- Hermione "trying a few spells" (technically before she got the
year-end letter, but still)
- Fred and George

It seems to me that the ministry must monitor HP separately from most
wizards. Possibly because he chooses to live with muggles or because
of who he is.

They didn't know Mundunges was there, nor Dobby so the monitoring is
pretty limited in most regards with the exception of monitoring for
magic, which all seems to be pinned on Harry.

The responses to my post set me straight, the graveyard fight can be
explained away by claiming the graveyard was under a 'black out', so
HP's magic would not have been reported.

BriD

2004-08-12 20:51:22 UTC

Post by Ridge
On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 18:08:57 +0200, Klaus Winkler

Post by Klaus Winkler
On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 13:16:52 GMT, Ridge

IMHO the whole underage magic law is a waste of parchment.
Obviously, the only cases where anyone gets caught is Harry while he
is at Privet Drive.
Other than that, there doesn't seem to be any real enforcement of the
law, examples
- Lily doing magic "turning teacups to rats"
- Hermione "trying a few spells" (technically before she got the
year-end letter, but still)
- Fred and George

It seems to me that the ministry must monitor HP separately from most
wizards. Possibly because he chooses to live with muggles or because
of who he is.
They didn't know Mundunges was there, nor Dobby so the monitoring is
pretty limited in most regards with the exception of monitoring for
magic, which all seems to be pinned on Harry.
The responses to my post set me straight, the graveyard fight can be
explained away by claiming the graveyard was under a 'black out', so
HP's magic would not have been reported.

Strangely no one (Or noone!)at the MoM seems to have noticed the use
of Flu powder,tontongue toffee, repairing spell damage to the Dursleys
lounge(All GoF)
Scurgify, Magical packing,Confundus (All OotP)and probably several
others I have forgotten. Mafalda Whatsit seems to have slipped up
pretty badly!!
Alright Harry didn't do any of them but I'm sure that wouldn't have
bothered Umbridge or Fudge.

BriD

FabulousDisneyBabe.com

2004-08-12 20:53:16 UTC

Post by BriD
Strangely no one (Or noone!)at the MoM seems to have noticed the use
of Flu powder,tontongue toffee, repairing spell damage to the Dursleys
lounge(All GoF)
Scurgify, Magical packing,Confundus (All OotP)and probably several
others I have forgotten. Mafalda Whatsit seems to have slipped up
pretty badly!!
Alright Harry didn't do any of them but I'm sure that wouldn't have
bothered Umbridge or Fudge.
BriD

Good to see you posting. I've missed you.

Fab

Save a broomstick - ride a wizard!
HP/Disney/Tiki/Lounge/Catfight: http://www.fabulousdisneybabe.com/forum
Schwag: http://www.cafeshops.com/fabdisbabe

Eric Bohlman

2004-08-13 02:12:56 UTC

Post by BriD
Strangely no one (Or noone!)at the MoM seems to have noticed the use
of Flu powder,tontongue toffee, repairing spell damage to the Dursleys
lounge(All GoF)

All done by a member of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement. Ever
hear the term "blue code of silence"?

Troels Forchhammer

2004-08-14 13:34:00 UTC

In message <news:***@posting.google.com>
***@elvis.com (BriD) enriched us with:
Hi BriD, good to see your handle again round in these parts.

Post by BriD
Strangely no one (Or noone!)at the MoM seems to have noticed the
use of Flu powder, tontongue toffee, repairing spell damage to the
Dursleys lounge(All GoF)

I have always assumed that Arthur let a few words drop with Mafalda
that he was going to fetch Harry -- that ought to have been enough.

Post by BriD
Scurgify, Magical packing,Confundus (All OotP)and probably several
others I have forgotten. Mafalda Whatsit seems to have slipped up
pretty badly!!

That one is a bit more confusing. I can't imagine that any of the
Minstry officials would have openly admitted that they were going to
fetch Harry from Privet Drive -- that would have jeopardised their
situation too much. Perhaps Mafalda, if she isn't susceptible to
Kingsley's gallantries, would be susceptible to his Galleons ;-)

Post by BriD
Alright Harry didn't do any of them but I'm sure that wouldn't
have bothered Umbridge or Fudge.

Agreed.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

It is useless to meet revenge with revenge: it will heal nothing.
- Frodo Baggins, 'LotR' (J.R.R. Tolkien)

BriD

2004-08-14 20:04:10 UTC

Post by Troels Forchhammer
Hi BriD, good to see your handle again round in these parts.

Post by BriD
Strangely no one (Or noone!)at the MoM seems to have noticed the
use of Flu powder, tontongue toffee, repairing spell damage to the
Dursleys lounge(All GoF)

I have always assumed that Arthur let a few words drop with Mafalda
that he was going to fetch Harry -- that ought to have been enough.

Post by BriD
Scurgify, Magical packing,Confundus (All OotP)and probably several
others I have forgotten. Mafalda Whatsit seems to have slipped up
pretty badly!!

Post by BriD
Alright Harry didn't do any of them but I'm sure that wouldn't
have bothered Umbridge or Fudge.

Agreed.

Thanks, Troels I have been around just not posting. Hopefully I'll
have a bit more time after the DW convention next weekend so will
probably post more then

BriD

gjw

2004-08-12 20:48:24 UTC