Discussion:
Fidelius Charm
(too old to reply)
Welsh Dog
2008-11-07 09:47:39 UTC
Permalink
From reading the group I think we established there are two distinct
types of Fidelius Charms - one affecting objects, e.g. Grimmauld Place
and the other affecting people, e.g. the one hiding James and Lily.

We know they differ because Grimmauld Place was 'invisible' to anyone
who wasn't a secret keeper... and the one on James and Lily was cast
such that even if you looked thru their lounge room window you'd not
see them!!

We know the charm on James and Lily died with them (and before their
secret keeper died) because the cottage was visible to Harry and
Hermione when they visited Godric's Hollow... before the episode at
Malfoy Manor.

Having established that... and knowing that *Harry* was thought to be
the intended target of Voldemort's attack on the family, doesn't it
seem strange that Harry himself was the only one *not* subject to the
Fidelius Charm intended to protect him??

Or was the charm cast such that anyone could see James and Lily...
except Voldemort and the Death Eaters? In which case why did Harry
think the Fidelius Charm had been cast over the house??

Am I missing something here??

Welshdog
--
News and views... for people like youse!!

Australian Opinion
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Not as strange as it looks!
Toon
2008-11-07 14:48:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Welsh Dog
Having established that... and knowing that *Harry* was thought to be
the intended target of Voldemort's attack on the family, doesn't it
seem strange that Harry himself was the only one *not* subject to the
Fidelius Charm intended to protect him??
I'm pretty sure he was. Makes no sense not to, and DD wouldn't
overlook that one.
Post by Welsh Dog
Or was the charm cast such that anyone could see James and Lily...
except Voldemort and the Death Eaters?
That's been my theory. The secret was against specific people. And
why everybody else seemed to be able to visit.
Post by Welsh Dog
In which case why did Harry
think the Fidelius Charm had been cast over the house??
He's on the run for his life. He's just started wondering if his
parents were DE's, and he's on the outs with Ron. I doubt he's doing
much more than off the top of his head. Plus, he's only ever seen a
house hidden, so he bases similar things off that.
DaveD
2008-11-18 14:31:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toon
Post by Welsh Dog
Having established that... and knowing that *Harry* was thought to be
the intended target of Voldemort's attack on the family, doesn't it
seem strange that Harry himself was the only one *not* subject to the
Fidelius Charm intended to protect him??
I'm pretty sure he was. Makes no sense not to, and DD wouldn't
overlook that one.
Post by Welsh Dog
Or was the charm cast such that anyone could see James and Lily...
except Voldemort and the Death Eaters?
That's been my theory. The secret was against specific people. And
why everybody else seemed to be able to visit.
Post by Welsh Dog
In which case why did Harry
think the Fidelius Charm had been cast over the house??
He's on the run for his life. He's just started wondering if his
parents were DE's, and he's on the outs with Ron. I doubt he's doing
much more than off the top of his head. Plus, he's only ever seen a
house hidden, so he bases similar things off that.
I'm not sure where the earlier bit about Harry not being subject of the FC
comes from? I always assumed it was something along the lines of "the secret
is that the Potter family is hiding at whatever-house in Godrics Hollow"
which would cover Harry, right up until his parents were killed at which
stage the Potter family no longer existed, as it was just Harry.

Also, as suggested above, if the secret was more specific, such as
"...hiding from Voldy and the DEs..." then once Voldy knew, the secret
ceased to exist and therefore so did the FC.

Harry might not have been told exactly what the FC said - he was used to
12GP being near-invisible at the HQ of the OotP, so perhaps he expected the
same of the house at Godrics Hollow, whereas how the FC worked in practice
seems to depend on the exact wording and the type of secret and, of course,
the fact that over many years lots of other spells were cast on 12GP that
probably weren't used at GH such as the unplottability charm.

DaveD
Welsh Dog
2008-11-18 23:23:59 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 14:31:46 -0000, "DaveD"
Post by DaveD
Post by Toon
Post by Welsh Dog
Having established that... and knowing that *Harry* was thought to be
the intended target of Voldemort's attack on the family, doesn't it
seem strange that Harry himself was the only one *not* subject to the
Fidelius Charm intended to protect him??
I'm pretty sure he was. Makes no sense not to, and DD wouldn't
overlook that one.
Post by Welsh Dog
Or was the charm cast such that anyone could see James and Lily...
except Voldemort and the Death Eaters?
That's been my theory. The secret was against specific people. And
why everybody else seemed to be able to visit.
Post by Welsh Dog
In which case why did Harry
think the Fidelius Charm had been cast over the house??
He's on the run for his life. He's just started wondering if his
parents were DE's, and he's on the outs with Ron. I doubt he's doing
much more than off the top of his head. Plus, he's only ever seen a
house hidden, so he bases similar things off that.
I'm not sure where the earlier bit about Harry not being subject of the FC
comes from? I always assumed it was something along the lines of "the secret
is that the Potter family is hiding at whatever-house in Godrics Hollow"
which would cover Harry, right up until his parents were killed at which
stage the Potter family no longer existed, as it was just Harry.
Even if Harry was the last one alive *he* was still 'The Potter
Family'.
Post by DaveD
Also, as suggested above, if the secret was more specific, such as
"...hiding from Voldy and the DEs..." then once Voldy knew, the secret
ceased to exist and therefore so did the FC.
Maybe Voldemort knew... but if the secret was cast to protect Harry
from the DE's as well... you have to ask how Lucious saw Harry with no
problems!? :)

This isn't a fidelius charm issue at Grimmauld Place because in that
case it *was* just the house that was hidden and the OOP members
otherwise continued their normal lives.

However the intention at Godric's Hollow was to prevent the Potters in
total being seen... yet after James and Lily died Harry was visible to
all... hence being sent to Petunia for safety with 'his mothers
blood'.

For me the easiest way out is to suggest that Harry himself wasn't
able to be hidden because he already had an MOM trace on him which the
fidelius charm couldn't hide him from.

Clearly there is a lot of work around the application of the fidelius
charms that is logically *very* flaky (as it would be bearing in mind
it's all fiction) but the flaws in the logic make for interesting
discussions! :D
Post by DaveD
Harry might not have been told exactly what the FC said - he was used to
12GP being near-invisible at the HQ of the OotP, so perhaps he expected the
same of the house at Godrics Hollow, whereas how the FC worked in practice
seems to depend on the exact wording and the type of secret and, of course,
the fact that over many years lots of other spells were cast on 12GP that
probably weren't used at GH such as the unplottability charm.
Maybe we'll find out if the encyclopaedia ever gets written,

Welshdog
--
News and views... for people like youse!!

Australian Opinion
(http://australianopinion.com)

Not as strange as it looks!
Toon
2008-11-19 15:46:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Welsh Dog
Even if Harry was the last one alive *he* was still 'The Potter
Family'.
Does one person make a family?
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by DaveD
Also, as suggested above, if the secret was more specific, such as
"...hiding from Voldy and the DEs..." then once Voldy knew, the secret
ceased to exist and therefore so did the FC.
Maybe Voldemort knew... but if the secret was cast to protect Harry
from the DE's as well... you have to ask how Lucious saw Harry with no
problems!? :)
This isn't a fidelius charm issue at Grimmauld Place because in that
case it *was* just the house that was hidden and the OOP members
otherwise continued their normal lives.
However the intention at Godric's Hollow was to prevent the Potters in
total being seen... yet after James and Lily died Harry was visible to
all... hence being sent to Petunia for safety with 'his mothers
blood'.
Thne Harry was not the Potter family.
Post by Welsh Dog
For me the easiest way out is to suggest that Harry himself wasn't
able to be hidden because he already had an MOM trace on him which the
fidelius charm couldn't hide him from.
I'm not sure he did. Babies almost never do magic, and a Trace is not
needed. Seems to be placed upon you after your first year at
Hogwarts.
Post by Welsh Dog
Clearly there is a lot of work around the application of the fidelius
charms that is logically *very* flaky (as it would be bearing in mind
it's all fiction) but the flaws in the logic make for interesting
discussions! :D
JK needed to delve into it's workings more.
Welsh Dog
2008-11-19 20:10:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toon
Post by Welsh Dog
Even if Harry was the last one alive *he* was still 'The Potter
Family'.
Does one person make a family?
I'd have thought so... he was never a part of the Dursley family tho
could have claimed kinship to either the Potters *or* the Evanses
(were there any still alive).
Post by Toon
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by DaveD
Also, as suggested above, if the secret was more specific, such as
"...hiding from Voldy and the DEs..." then once Voldy knew, the secret
ceased to exist and therefore so did the FC.
Maybe Voldemort knew... but if the secret was cast to protect Harry
from the DE's as well... you have to ask how Lucious saw Harry with no
problems!? :)
This isn't a fidelius charm issue at Grimmauld Place because in that
case it *was* just the house that was hidden and the OOP members
otherwise continued their normal lives.
However the intention at Godric's Hollow was to prevent the Potters in
total being seen... yet after James and Lily died Harry was visible to
all... hence being sent to Petunia for safety with 'his mothers
blood'.
Then Harry was not the Potter family.
Which he clearly was... or he'd have been visible before Peter
betrayed them! So the spell must have been cast in a way which didn't
cover *him* specifically! So he wasn't protected properly by the
charm!!

Surely it was *Harry* that Voldemort wanted... not his parents... so
putting a charm on them and not him, or a charm that only worked while
*they* were alive was a bit pointless?
Post by Toon
Post by Welsh Dog
For me the easiest way out is to suggest that Harry himself wasn't
able to be hidden because he already had an MOM trace on him which the
fidelius charm couldn't hide him from.
I'm not sure he did. Babies almost never do magic, and a Trace is not
needed. Seems to be placed upon you after your first year at
Hogwarts.
Post by Welsh Dog
Clearly there is a lot of work around the application of the fidelius
charms that is logically *very* flaky (as it would be bearing in mind
it's all fiction) but the flaws in the logic make for interesting
discussions! :D
JK needed to delve into it's workings more.
Welshdog
--
News and views... for people like youse!!

Australian Opinion
(http://australianopinion.com)

Not as strange as it looks!
Toon
2008-11-20 15:02:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Toon
Does one person make a family?
I'd have thought so... he was never a part of the Dursley family tho
could have claimed kinship to either the Potters *or* the Evanses
(were there any still alive).
Petunia was the only Evans, Harry, the only Potter.
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Toon
Then Harry was not the Potter family.
Which he clearly was... or he'd have been visible before Peter
betrayed them! So the spell must have been cast in a way which didn't
cover *him* specifically! So he wasn't protected properly by the
charm!!
Surely it was *Harry* that Voldemort wanted... not his parents... so
putting a charm on them and not him, or a charm that only worked while
*they* were alive was a bit pointless?
But all 3 were protected, and once James ad Lily were dead, it was
over. Therefore, Harry does not qualify as family. Or perhaps they
secret was the Potters (plural) were hiding, and surviving Harry was a
Potter, not plural, per the secret.
Welsh Dog
2008-11-20 19:53:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toon
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Toon
Does one person make a family?
I'd have thought so... he was never a part of the Dursley family tho
could have claimed kinship to either the Potters *or* the Evanses
(were there any still alive).
Petunia was the only Evans, Harry, the only Potter.
Two example of immaculate conception? Wow... who'da thunk it??

I take it you missed the "were there any still alive" bit? :)
Post by Toon
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Toon
Then Harry was not the Potter family.
Which he clearly was... or he'd have been visible before Peter
betrayed them! So the spell must have been cast in a way which didn't
cover *him* specifically! So he wasn't protected properly by the
charm!!
Surely it was *Harry* that Voldemort wanted... not his parents... so
putting a charm on them and not him, or a charm that only worked while
*they* were alive was a bit pointless?
But all 3 were protected, and once James ad Lily were dead, it was
over. Therefore, Harry does not qualify as family. Or perhaps they
secret was the Potters (plural) were hiding, and surviving Harry was a
Potter, not plural, per the secret.
That's even sillier since it was *Harry* who was in danger most of
all! Yes Snape said that Lily was in danger but only in as much as she
would stand between Voldemort and Harry... so any charm surely must
needs be placed around Harry most importantly because *he* was 'the
chosen one' according to the prophecy. All others were essentially
disposable if *he* survived.

Welshdog
--
News and views... for people like youse!!

Australian Opinion
(http://australianopinion.com)

Not as strange as it looks!
Toon
2008-11-21 15:13:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Toon
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Toon
Does one person make a family?
I'd have thought so... he was never a part of the Dursley family tho
could have claimed kinship to either the Potters *or* the Evanses
(were there any still alive).
Petunia was the only Evans, Harry, the only Potter.
Two example of immaculate conception? Wow... who'da thunk it??
I take it you missed the "were there any still alive" bit? :)
Nope, that's why my sentence stands correct. No one else survived.
Only Petuni from the Evans Clan, Harry from the Potter's Bunch,
Post by Welsh Dog
That's even sillier since it was *Harry* who was in danger most of
all! Yes Snape said that Lily was in danger but only in as much as she
would stand between Voldemort and Harry... so any charm surely must
needs be placed around Harry most importantly because *he* was 'the
chosen one' according to the prophecy. All others were essentially
disposable if *he* survived.
Yet, Harry received no other protection short of Fidelius Charm. Then
again, why didn't Muggleborn Lily just buy a gun? Eat lead, Volderot!
Bang bang bang!
Welsh Dog
2008-11-21 20:42:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toon
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Toon
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Toon
Does one person make a family?
I'd have thought so... he was never a part of the Dursley family tho
could have claimed kinship to either the Potters *or* the Evanses
(were there any still alive).
Petunia was the only Evans, Harry, the only Potter.
Two example of immaculate conception? Wow... who'da thunk it??
I take it you missed the "were there any still alive" bit? :)
Nope, that's why my sentence stands correct. No one else survived.
Only Petuni from the Evans Clan, Harry from the Potter's Bunch,
So each of them represents their families! Until more of each arrive
they each *are* their own family!
Post by Toon
Post by Welsh Dog
That's even sillier since it was *Harry* who was in danger most of
all! Yes Snape said that Lily was in danger but only in as much as she
would stand between Voldemort and Harry... so any charm surely must
needs be placed around Harry most importantly because *he* was 'the
chosen one' according to the prophecy. All others were essentially
disposable if *he* survived.
Yet, Harry received no other protection short of Fidelius Charm. Then
again, why didn't Muggleborn Lily just buy a gun? Eat lead, Volderot!
Bang bang bang!
'Zackly... it's all a bit strange! :)

Welshdog
--
News and views... for people like youse!!

Australian Opinion
(http://australianopinion.com)

Not as strange as it looks!
t***@gmail.com
2016-10-05 12:06:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toon
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Toon
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Toon
Does one person make a family?
I'd have thought so... he was never a part of the Dursley family tho
could have claimed kinship to either the Potters *or* the Evanses
(were there any still alive).
Petunia was the only Evans, Harry, the only Potter.
Two example of immaculate conception? Wow... who'da thunk it??
I take it you missed the "were there any still alive" bit? :)
Nope, that's why my sentence stands correct. No one else survived.
Only Petuni from the Evans Clan, Harry from the Potter's Bunch,
Post by Welsh Dog
That's even sillier since it was *Harry* who was in danger most of
all! Yes Snape said that Lily was in danger but only in as much as she
would stand between Voldemort and Harry... so any charm surely must
needs be placed around Harry most importantly because *he* was 'the
chosen one' according to the prophecy. All others were essentially
disposable if *he* survived.
Yet, Harry received no other protection short of Fidelius Charm. Then
again, why didn't Muggleborn Lily just buy a gun? Eat lead, Volderot!
Bang bang bang!
Britain has strong gun control laws, IIRC.
Timothy Bruening
2017-11-27 03:00:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toon
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Toon
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Toon
Does one person make a family?
I'd have thought so... he was never a part of the Dursley family tho
could have claimed kinship to either the Potters *or* the Evanses
(were there any still alive).
Petunia was the only Evans, Harry, the only Potter.
Two example of immaculate conception? Wow... who'da thunk it??
I take it you missed the "were there any still alive" bit? :)
Nope, that's why my sentence stands correct. No one else survived.
Only Petuni from the Evans Clan, Harry from the Potter's Bunch,
Post by Welsh Dog
That's even sillier since it was *Harry* who was in danger most of
all! Yes Snape said that Lily was in danger but only in as much as she
would stand between Voldemort and Harry... so any charm surely must
needs be placed around Harry most importantly because *he* was 'the
chosen one' according to the prophecy. All others were essentially
disposable if *he* survived.
Yet, Harry received no other protection short of Fidelius Charm. Then
again, why didn't Muggleborn Lily just buy a gun? Eat lead, Volderot!
Bang bang bang!
Because of Britain's gun control laws!

Thommadura
2008-11-25 13:55:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toon
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Toon
Does one person make a family?
I'd have thought so... he was never a part of the Dursley family tho
could have claimed kinship to either the Potters *or* the Evanses
(were there any still alive).
Petunia was the only Evans, Harry, the only Potter.
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Toon
Then Harry was not the Potter family.
Which he clearly was... or he'd have been visible before Peter
betrayed them! So the spell must have been cast in a way which didn't
cover *him* specifically! So he wasn't protected properly by the
charm!!
Surely it was *Harry* that Voldemort wanted... not his parents... so
putting a charm on them and not him, or a charm that only worked while
*they* were alive was a bit pointless?
But all 3 were protected, and once James ad Lily were dead, it was
over. Therefore, Harry does not qualify as family. Or perhaps they
secret was the Potters (plural) were hiding, and surviving Harry was a
Potter, not plural, per the secret.
While we don't have all the information needed to determine all of the
parameters of a Fidelius charm - we can produce some real information.

Obviously - the fidelius charm on the Potters was meant to Protect Harry
- since HE was the one in the vision.

It makes sense that the Charm itself HAS to be cast by someone - and
likely that is not the secret keeper. Based on that - the Potter charm
was cast by either James or Lily. In that case of 12GP - it was likely
Sirius - since Dumbledore was the secret keeper.

Now - when all of these possible charm casters died - the protection
stopped. Harry became visible - and 12GP was no longer protected to the
point that Dumbledore moved the OOP out of 12GP. That was true even
though the secret keepers were - on both cases - still alive.

It appears - based on the books themselves- that the Fidelius charm ends
when the person who CAST the spell dies.

That would explain BOTH cases easily.
Welsh Dog
2008-11-25 20:32:15 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 08:55:27 -0500, Thommadura
Post by Thommadura
Post by Toon
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Toon
Does one person make a family?
I'd have thought so... he was never a part of the Dursley family tho
could have claimed kinship to either the Potters *or* the Evanses
(were there any still alive).
Petunia was the only Evans, Harry, the only Potter.
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Toon
Then Harry was not the Potter family.
Which he clearly was... or he'd have been visible before Peter
betrayed them! So the spell must have been cast in a way which didn't
cover *him* specifically! So he wasn't protected properly by the
charm!!
Surely it was *Harry* that Voldemort wanted... not his parents... so
putting a charm on them and not him, or a charm that only worked while
*they* were alive was a bit pointless?
But all 3 were protected, and once James ad Lily were dead, it was
over. Therefore, Harry does not qualify as family. Or perhaps they
secret was the Potters (plural) were hiding, and surviving Harry was a
Potter, not plural, per the secret.
While we don't have all the information needed to determine all of the
parameters of a Fidelius charm - we can produce some real information.
Obviously - the fidelius charm on the Potters was meant to Protect Harry
- since HE was the one in the vision.
It makes sense that the Charm itself HAS to be cast by someone - and
likely that is not the secret keeper. Based on that - the Potter charm
was cast by either James or Lily. In that case of 12GP - it was likely
Sirius - since Dumbledore was the secret keeper.
Possible - but I can't see how or why the keeper would be a different
person to the one who casts the spell!
Post by Thommadura
Now - when all of these possible charm casters died - the protection
stopped. Harry became visible - and 12GP was no longer protected to the
point that Dumbledore moved the OOP out of 12GP. That was true even
though the secret keepers were - on both cases - still alive.
The problem with 12 GP *wasn't* that Sirius was or wasn't the spell
caster.

The problem was that with his death had he not left the house to Harry
it would have passed to Bellatrix... along with Kreacher!!

It *was* still hidden etc
Post by Thommadura
It appears - based on the books themselves- that the Fidelius charm ends
when the person who CAST the spell dies.
That would explain BOTH cases easily.
Not necessarily sadly.

Welshdog
--
News and views... for people like youse!!

Australian Opinion
(http://australianopinion.com)

Not as strange as it looks!
Thommadura
2008-11-25 22:27:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Welsh Dog
On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 08:55:27 -0500, Thommadura
Post by Thommadura
Post by Toon
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Toon
Does one person make a family?
I'd have thought so... he was never a part of the Dursley family tho
could have claimed kinship to either the Potters *or* the Evanses
(were there any still alive).
Petunia was the only Evans, Harry, the only Potter.
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Toon
Then Harry was not the Potter family.
Which he clearly was... or he'd have been visible before Peter
betrayed them! So the spell must have been cast in a way which didn't
cover *him* specifically! So he wasn't protected properly by the
charm!!
Surely it was *Harry* that Voldemort wanted... not his parents... so
putting a charm on them and not him, or a charm that only worked while
*they* were alive was a bit pointless?
But all 3 were protected, and once James ad Lily were dead, it was
over. Therefore, Harry does not qualify as family. Or perhaps they
secret was the Potters (plural) were hiding, and surviving Harry was a
Potter, not plural, per the secret.
While we don't have all the information needed to determine all of the
parameters of a Fidelius charm - we can produce some real information.
Obviously - the fidelius charm on the Potters was meant to Protect Harry
- since HE was the one in the vision.
It makes sense that the Charm itself HAS to be cast by someone - and
likely that is not the secret keeper. Based on that - the Potter charm
was cast by either James or Lily. In that case of 12GP - it was likely
Sirius - since Dumbledore was the secret keeper.
Possible - but I can't see how or why the keeper would be a different
person to the one who casts the spell!
Post by Thommadura
Now - when all of these possible charm casters died - the protection
stopped. Harry became visible - and 12GP was no longer protected to the
point that Dumbledore moved the OOP out of 12GP. That was true even
though the secret keepers were - on both cases - still alive.
The problem with 12 GP *wasn't* that Sirius was or wasn't the spell
caster.
The problem was that with his death had he not left the house to Harry
it would have passed to Bellatrix... along with Kreacher!!
It *was* still hidden etc
WE don't know that - that is not in the books. All we know is that once
Sirius was dead - they had to move out.
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Thommadura
It appears - based on the books themselves- that the Fidelius charm ends
when the person who CAST the spell dies.
That would explain BOTH cases easily.
Not necessarily sadly.
Welshdog
Welsh Dog
2008-11-27 03:07:15 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:27:29 -0500, Thommadura
Post by Thommadura
Post by Welsh Dog
On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 08:55:27 -0500, Thommadura
<snip>
Post by Thommadura
Post by Welsh Dog
The problem with 12 GP *wasn't* that Sirius was or wasn't the spell
caster.
The problem was that with his death had he not left the house to Harry
it would have passed to Bellatrix... along with Kreacher!!
It *was* still hidden etc
WE don't know that - that is not in the books. All we know is that once
Sirius was dead - they had to move out.
I think we do!! DD told Harry at the Dursley's:

“Well,” said Dumbledore, ignoring the mutterings of
Uncle Vernon, who was now being rapped smartly
over the head by the persistent glass of mead,
“Black family tradition decreed that the house was
handed down the direct line, to the next male with
the name of ‘Black.’ Sirius was the very last of the
line as his younger brother, Regulus, predeceased
him and both were childless. While his will makes it
perfectly plain that he wants you to have the house,
it is nevertheless possible that some spell or
enchantment has been set upon the place to ensure
that it cannot be owned by anyone other than a
pureblood.”

A vivid image of the shrieking, spitting portrait of
Sirius’s mother that hung in the hall of number
twelve, Grimmauld Place flashed into Harry’s mind.
“I bet there has,” he said.

“Quite,” said Dumbledore. “And if such an enchantment
exists, then the ownership of the house is most likely to
pass to the eldest of Sirius’s living relatives, which would
mean his cousin, Bellatrix Lestrange.”

Welshdog
--
News and views... for people like youse!!

Australian Opinion
(http://australianopinion.com)

Not as strange as it looks!
Toon
2008-11-27 15:38:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Thommadura
Post by Welsh Dog
It *was* still hidden etc
WE don't know that - that is not in the books. All we know is that once
Sirius was dead - they had to move out.
“Well,” said Dumbledore, ignoring the mutterings of
Uncle Vernon, who was now being rapped smartly
over the head by the persistent glass of mead,
“Black family tradition decreed that the house was
handed down the direct line, to the next male with
the name of ‘Black.’ Sirius was the very last of the
line as his younger brother, Regulus, predeceased
him and both were childless. While his will makes it
perfectly plain that he wants you to have the house,
it is nevertheless possible that some spell or
enchantment has been set upon the place to ensure
that it cannot be owned by anyone other than a
pureblood.”
A vivid image of the shrieking, spitting portrait of
Sirius’s mother that hung in the hall of number
twelve, Grimmauld Place flashed into Harry’s mind.
“I bet there has,” he said.
“Quite,” said Dumbledore. “And if such an enchantment
exists, then the ownership of the house is most likely to
pass to the eldest of Sirius’s living relatives, which would
mean his cousin, Bellatrix Lestrange.”
Welshdog
The only thing is, once the previous owner died, would the Fedileus
Charm break? Can it remain hidden from it's rightful owner? Bellatrix
could waltz in, but why? Did the FC suddenly include her? Or would it
be broken entirely until the new owner allowed it's use? Even still,
the other enchantments would hold. But who is it hidden from?
Everybody, or everybody but the rightful owner?
Welsh Dog
2008-11-27 19:27:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toon
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Thommadura
Post by Welsh Dog
It *was* still hidden etc
WE don't know that - that is not in the books. All we know is that once
Sirius was dead - they had to move out.
“Well,” said Dumbledore, ignoring the mutterings of
Uncle Vernon, who was now being rapped smartly
over the head by the persistent glass of mead,
“Black family tradition decreed that the house was
handed down the direct line, to the next male with
the name of ‘Black.’ Sirius was the very last of the
line as his younger brother, Regulus, predeceased
him and both were childless. While his will makes it
perfectly plain that he wants you to have the house,
it is nevertheless possible that some spell or
enchantment has been set upon the place to ensure
that it cannot be owned by anyone other than a
pureblood.”
A vivid image of the shrieking, spitting portrait of
Sirius’s mother that hung in the hall of number
twelve, Grimmauld Place flashed into Harry’s mind.
“I bet there has,” he said.
“Quite,” said Dumbledore. “And if such an enchantment
exists, then the ownership of the house is most likely to
pass to the eldest of Sirius’s living relatives, which would
mean his cousin, Bellatrix Lestrange.”
The only thing is, once the previous owner died, would the Fedileus
Charm break? Can it remain hidden from it's rightful owner? Bellatrix
could waltz in, but why? Did the FC suddenly include her? Or would it
be broken entirely until the new owner allowed it's use? Even still,
the other enchantments would hold. But who is it hidden from?
Everybody, or everybody but the rightful owner?
We'll probably never know what JKR would have thought about it.. if
indeed it ever crossed her mind! :)

In this one case the house passed to Harry so she didn't need to
strain her brain too much.

Perhaps the 'rightful owner' could share the house with the others and
not be able to see them. They might think even they had poltergeists
living with them as things would move from time to time without them
knowing who or how did it..

Welshdog
--
News and views... for people like youse!!

Australian Opinion
(http://australianopinion.com)

Not as strange as it looks!
Thommadura
2008-12-07 14:23:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toon
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Thommadura
Post by Welsh Dog
It *was* still hidden etc
WE don't know that - that is not in the books. All we know is that once
Sirius was dead - they had to move out.
“Well,” said Dumbledore, ignoring the mutterings of
Uncle Vernon, who was now being rapped smartly
over the head by the persistent glass of mead,
“Black family tradition decreed that the house was
handed down the direct line, to the next male with
the name of ‘Black.’ Sirius was the very last of the
line as his younger brother, Regulus, predeceased
him and both were childless. While his will makes it
perfectly plain that he wants you to have the house,
it is nevertheless possible that some spell or
enchantment has been set upon the place to ensure
that it cannot be owned by anyone other than a
pureblood.”
A vivid image of the shrieking, spitting portrait of
Sirius’s mother that hung in the hall of number
twelve, Grimmauld Place flashed into Harry’s mind.
“I bet there has,” he said.
“Quite,” said Dumbledore. “And if such an enchantment
exists, then the ownership of the house is most likely to
pass to the eldest of Sirius’s living relatives, which would
mean his cousin, Bellatrix Lestrange.”
Welshdog
The only thing is, once the previous owner died, would the Fedileus
Charm break? Can it remain hidden from it's rightful owner? Bellatrix
could waltz in, but why? Did the FC suddenly include her? Or would it
be broken entirely until the new owner allowed it's use? Even still,
the other enchantments would hold. But who is it hidden from?
Everybody, or everybody but the rightful owner?
Obviously - the house is hidden from muggles - that is what Sirius said
in the books so that is cannon.

THe question on the Fidelius is what breaks the spell.

Obviously - the spell was broken at the Potter Residence - even though
the secret keeper was still alive. Therefore - the explanation JKR has
given us if the secret keeper does does not apply.

There appear to be two possibilities I can think of.

1 - THe spell ends with the death of the person who cast the spell. In
the case of the Potter Residence - that would have been one of the
Potters =- and in the case of 12 GP that would have been
Sirius(Dumbledore was the secret keeper).

Once Lily and James were dead - Harry was visible to Hagrid and
Dumbledore - both of whom did NOT know that peter was the secret
keeper(Based on Sirius' trial) - so they were not in on the secret.

That would also explain the need to leave 12GP once Sirius was dead. THe
first Fidelius would have been broken - and there could not be another
one until ownership of the house was resolved.

2 - THe other possibility in the Potter residence case - COULD BE - that
the house was part of the spell itself - IE - they were protected in the
house - and when the house was destroyed - the spell ended. However -
that would not explain 12 GP though.
Thommadura
2008-12-07 14:14:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Welsh Dog
On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:27:29 -0500, Thommadura
Post by Thommadura
Post by Welsh Dog
On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 08:55:27 -0500, Thommadura
<snip>
Post by Thommadura
Post by Welsh Dog
The problem with 12 GP *wasn't* that Sirius was or wasn't the spell
caster.
The problem was that with his death had he not left the house to Harry
it would have passed to Bellatrix... along with Kreacher!!
It *was* still hidden etc
WE don't know that - that is not in the books. All we know is that once
Sirius was dead - they had to move out.
“Well,” said Dumbledore, ignoring the mutterings of
Uncle Vernon, who was now being rapped smartly
over the head by the persistent glass of mead,
“Black family tradition decreed that the house was
handed down the direct line, to the next male with
the name of ‘Black.’ Sirius was the very last of the
line as his younger brother, Regulus, predeceased
him and both were childless. While his will makes it
perfectly plain that he wants you to have the house,
it is nevertheless possible that some spell or
enchantment has been set upon the place to ensure
that it cannot be owned by anyone other than a
pureblood.”
A vivid image of the shrieking, spitting portrait of
Sirius’s mother that hung in the hall of number
twelve, Grimmauld Place flashed into Harry’s mind.
“I bet there has,” he said.
“Quite,” said Dumbledore. “And if such an enchantment
exists, then the ownership of the house is most likely to
pass to the eldest of Sirius’s living relatives, which would
mean his cousin, Bellatrix Lestrange.”
Welshdog
That still does not establish that the house was still hidden - only -
as I said - that the house could have been passed to Bellatrix
Welsh Dog
2008-12-09 04:03:02 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 09:14:28 -0500, Thommadura
Post by Thommadura
Post by Welsh Dog
On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:27:29 -0500, Thommadura
Post by Thommadura
Post by Welsh Dog
On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 08:55:27 -0500, Thommadura
<snip>
Post by Thommadura
Post by Welsh Dog
The problem with 12 GP *wasn't* that Sirius was or wasn't the spell
caster.
The problem was that with his death had he not left the house to Harry
it would have passed to Bellatrix... along with Kreacher!!
It *was* still hidden etc
WE don't know that - that is not in the books. All we know is that once
Sirius was dead - they had to move out.
“Well,” said Dumbledore, ignoring the mutterings of
Uncle Vernon, who was now being rapped smartly
over the head by the persistent glass of mead,
“Black family tradition decreed that the house was
handed down the direct line, to the next male with
the name of ‘Black.’ Sirius was the very last of the
line as his younger brother, Regulus, predeceased
him and both were childless. While his will makes it
perfectly plain that he wants you to have the house,
it is nevertheless possible that some spell or
enchantment has been set upon the place to ensure
that it cannot be owned by anyone other than a
pureblood.”
A vivid image of the shrieking, spitting portrait of
Sirius’s mother that hung in the hall of number
twelve, Grimmauld Place flashed into Harry’s mind.
“I bet there has,” he said.
“Quite,” said Dumbledore. “And if such an enchantment
exists, then the ownership of the house is most likely to
pass to the eldest of Sirius’s living relatives, which would
mean his cousin, Bellatrix Lestrange.”
That still does not establish that the house was still hidden - only -
as I said - that the house could have been passed to Bellatrix
Perhaps we have a different understanding about what 'hidden' means?
Dumbledore said in HPB that the house was unplottable...

“Well, obviously we would prefer that she didn't get
it either,” said Dumbledore calmly. “The situation is
fraught with complications. We do not know whether
the enchantments we ourselves have placed upon it,
for example, making it Unplottable, will hold now that
ownership has passed from Sirius’s hands. It might
be that Bellatrix will arrive on the doorstep at any
moment. Naturally we had to move out until such time
as we have clarified the position.”

... and from OoP we know it was invisible from the street unless the
secret keeper had passed on the address!

They were standing outside number eleven; he
looked to the left and saw number ten; to the
right, however, was number thirteen.

“But where’s -?”

“Think about what you’ve just memorized,” said
Lupin quietly. Harry thought, and no sooner had he
reached the part about number twelve, Grimmauld
Place, than a battered door emerged out of nowhere
between numbers eleven and thirteen, followed
swiftly by dirty walls and grimy windows. It was as
though an extra house had inflated, pushing
those on either side out of its way.

So we can reasonably assume that since ownership of the house *had*
passed to Harry it was still invisible and that the house wasn't able
to be seen by muggles or wizards.

In DH the DE's were gathering in the area where the use of Voldemort's
name was being used but were unable to locate the house!

Had Bellatrix been able to locate the house there is no doubt she'd
have gone there so we can also assume *all* the spells had remained in
place and that the house was still unplottable.

Welshdog
--
News and views... from 'the land down under'.
Australian Opinion
http://australianopinion.com.au and
http://australianopinion.com
Thommadura
2008-12-09 18:07:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Welsh Dog
On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 09:14:28 -0500, Thommadura
Post by Thommadura
Post by Welsh Dog
On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:27:29 -0500, Thommadura
Post by Thommadura
Post by Welsh Dog
On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 08:55:27 -0500, Thommadura
<snip>
Post by Thommadura
Post by Welsh Dog
The problem with 12 GP *wasn't* that Sirius was or wasn't the spell
caster.
The problem was that with his death had he not left the house to Harry
it would have passed to Bellatrix... along with Kreacher!!
It *was* still hidden etc
WE don't know that - that is not in the books. All we know is that once
Sirius was dead - they had to move out.
“Well,” said Dumbledore, ignoring the mutterings of
Uncle Vernon, who was now being rapped smartly
over the head by the persistent glass of mead,
“Black family tradition decreed that the house was
handed down the direct line, to the next male with
the name of ‘Black.’ Sirius was the very last of the
line as his younger brother, Regulus, predeceased
him and both were childless. While his will makes it
perfectly plain that he wants you to have the house,
it is nevertheless possible that some spell or
enchantment has been set upon the place to ensure
that it cannot be owned by anyone other than a
pureblood.”
A vivid image of the shrieking, spitting portrait of
Sirius’s mother that hung in the hall of number
twelve, Grimmauld Place flashed into Harry’s mind.
“I bet there has,” he said.
“Quite,” said Dumbledore. “And if such an enchantment
exists, then the ownership of the house is most likely to
pass to the eldest of Sirius’s living relatives, which would
mean his cousin, Bellatrix Lestrange.”
That still does not establish that the house was still hidden - only -
as I said - that the house could have been passed to Bellatrix
Perhaps we have a different understanding about what 'hidden' means?
Dumbledore said in HPB that the house was unplottable...
“Well, obviously we would prefer that she didn't get
it either,” said Dumbledore calmly. “The situation is
fraught with complications. We do not know whether
the enchantments we ourselves have placed upon it,
for example, making it Unplottable, will hold now that
ownership has passed from Sirius’s hands. It might
be that Bellatrix will arrive on the doorstep at any
moment. Naturally we had to move out until such time
as we have clarified the position.”
... and from OoP we know it was invisible from the street unless the
secret keeper had passed on the address!
They were standing outside number eleven; he
looked to the left and saw number ten; to the
right, however, was number thirteen.
“But where’s -?”
“Think about what you’ve just memorized,” said
Lupin quietly. Harry thought, and no sooner had he
reached the part about number twelve, Grimmauld
Place, than a battered door emerged out of nowhere
between numbers eleven and thirteen, followed
swiftly by dirty walls and grimy windows. It was as
though an extra house had inflated, pushing
those on either side out of its way.
So we can reasonably assume that since ownership of the house *had*
passed to Harry it was still invisible and that the house wasn't able
to be seen by muggles or wizards.
In DH the DE's were gathering in the area where the use of Voldemort's
name was being used but were unable to locate the house!
Had Bellatrix been able to locate the house there is no doubt she'd
have gone there so we can also assume *all* the spells had remained in
place and that the house was still unplottable.
Welshdog
BUT - the house was unplottable because of the spells and enchantments
Sirius' father put on the house - that is also clear from the books -
although I do not have my copy here to quote from. IT is clear that the
spells used to do that do not cover wizards - based on Bellatrix's
ability to see it.


WE are talking about the protection of the Fidelius - whatever that was
- and we cannot agree on that either.

I continue to believe that a Fidelius - as defined in the books -
protects a SECRET - and the house itself could not be a secret since
there were other not in on the spell who would have known where the
house was. (Narcissa and Bellatrix - and anyone else from the wizarding
world who might have visited - like Lucius)
Welsh Dog
2008-12-09 18:30:01 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 09 Dec 2008 13:07:42 -0500, Thommadura
Post by Thommadura
Post by Welsh Dog
On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 09:14:28 -0500, Thommadura
Post by Thommadura
Post by Welsh Dog
On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:27:29 -0500, Thommadura
Post by Thommadura
Post by Welsh Dog
On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 08:55:27 -0500, Thommadura
<snip>
Post by Thommadura
Post by Welsh Dog
The problem with 12 GP *wasn't* that Sirius was or wasn't the spell
caster.
The problem was that with his death had he not left the house to Harry
it would have passed to Bellatrix... along with Kreacher!!
It *was* still hidden etc
WE don't know that - that is not in the books. All we know is that once
Sirius was dead - they had to move out.
“Well,” said Dumbledore, ignoring the mutterings of
Uncle Vernon, who was now being rapped smartly
over the head by the persistent glass of mead,
“Black family tradition decreed that the house was
handed down the direct line, to the next male with
the name of ‘Black.’ Sirius was the very last of the
line as his younger brother, Regulus, predeceased
him and both were childless. While his will makes it
perfectly plain that he wants you to have the house,
it is nevertheless possible that some spell or
enchantment has been set upon the place to ensure
that it cannot be owned by anyone other than a
pureblood.”
A vivid image of the shrieking, spitting portrait of
Sirius’s mother that hung in the hall of number
twelve, Grimmauld Place flashed into Harry’s mind.
“I bet there has,” he said.
“Quite,” said Dumbledore. “And if such an enchantment
exists, then the ownership of the house is most likely to
pass to the eldest of Sirius’s living relatives, which would
mean his cousin, Bellatrix Lestrange.”
That still does not establish that the house was still hidden - only -
as I said - that the house could have been passed to Bellatrix
Perhaps we have a different understanding about what 'hidden' means?
Dumbledore said in HPB that the house was unplottable...
“Well, obviously we would prefer that she didn't get
it either,” said Dumbledore calmly. “The situation is
fraught with complications. We do not know whether
the enchantments we ourselves have placed upon it,
for example, making it Unplottable, will hold now that
ownership has passed from Sirius’s hands. It might
be that Bellatrix will arrive on the doorstep at any
moment. Naturally we had to move out until such time
as we have clarified the position.”
... and from OoP we know it was invisible from the street unless the
secret keeper had passed on the address!
They were standing outside number eleven; he
looked to the left and saw number ten; to the
right, however, was number thirteen.
“But where’s -?”
“Think about what you’ve just memorized,” said
Lupin quietly. Harry thought, and no sooner had he
reached the part about number twelve, Grimmauld
Place, than a battered door emerged out of nowhere
between numbers eleven and thirteen, followed
swiftly by dirty walls and grimy windows. It was as
though an extra house had inflated, pushing
those on either side out of its way.
So we can reasonably assume that since ownership of the house *had*
passed to Harry it was still invisible and that the house wasn't able
to be seen by muggles or wizards.
In DH the DE's were gathering in the area where the use of Voldemort's
name was being used but were unable to locate the house!
Had Bellatrix been able to locate the house there is no doubt she'd
have gone there so we can also assume *all* the spells had remained in
place and that the house was still unplottable.
Welshdog
BUT - the house was unplottable because of the spells and enchantments
Sirius' father put on the house - that is also clear from the books -
although I do not have my copy here to quote from. IT is clear that the
spells used to do that do not cover wizards - based on Bellatrix's
ability to see it.
WE are talking about the protection of the Fidelius - whatever that was
- and we cannot agree on that either.
I continue to believe that a Fidelius - as defined in the books -
protects a SECRET - and the house itself could not be a secret since
there were other not in on the spell who would have known where the
house was. (Narcissa and Bellatrix - and anyone else from the wizarding
world who might have visited - like Lucius)
In one of the quotes above DD says "we ourselves..."
Post by Thommadura
Post by Welsh Dog
... We do not know whether
the enchantments we ourselves have placed upon it,
for example, making it Unplottable, will hold now that
ownership has passed from Sirius’s hands.
Which means *they* made it unplottable! These are direct quotes from
the books.

Also the DE's are wizards and we know they can't see it because they
never saw any of the trio entering the house despite waiting in the
area where they knew the word Voldemort was being used.

Welshdog
--
News and views... from 'the land down under'.
Australian Opinion
http://australianopinion.com.au and
http://australianopinion.com
Toon
2008-12-10 16:09:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Thommadura
I continue to believe that a Fidelius - as defined in the books -
protects a SECRET - and the house itself could not be a secret since
there were other not in on the spell who would have known where the
house was. (Narcissa and Bellatrix - and anyone else from the wizarding
world who might have visited - like Lucius)
In one of the quotes above DD says "we ourselves..."
Post by Thommadura
Post by Welsh Dog
... We do not know whether
the enchantments we ourselves have placed upon it,
for example, making it Unplottable, will hold now that
ownership has passed from Sirius’s hands.
Which means *they* made it unplottable! These are direct quotes from
the books.
Also the DE's are wizards and we know they can't see it because they
never saw any of the trio entering the house despite waiting in the
area where they knew the word Voldemort was being used.
Welshdog
Well let's see. Harry arrives, and notices the numbers skip by 1.
He's handed a piece of paper that says 12GP is the HQ of the OOP. He
still sees nothing. Harry is then told to think about what he just
read. As soon as he reaches the end of thinking 12GP, the house
appears.

Breaking it down:

We have what appears to be an invisible house, and a secret.
When Harry arrives, he doesn't know the secret. He can't see the
house. Only upon thinking about the secret does it appear. Thus
proving one must consciously acknowledge the secret they just learned
to break it.

Now then, is there any evidence to support the above was not an FC?
That there's a different spell which will make a house invisible until
someone is told it's there (and they think about it)? If so, then no
FC was in place. If not, the FC did indeed hide the house. It
doesn't matter who knows there is a house there usually, they can no
longer find it. hence why we see DE waiting across the street, unable
to do anything since there is no house where they know one must be.
This fist in with Snape saying he knows the location of the OOP, but
can't say it as he's the Secret Keeper. Again, that proves Harry was
part of an FC breaking.

No matter what other spells were placed on the house, we only bore
witness to the FC being broken. Nothing in the books suggest there
was a combo special going on. Break one, break them all. Nothign
suggests that Harry did anything to get passed the extra protection.
What we saw was the FC in action, and subsequently being broken. What
we see is that one can hide a house from someone else, even if they
know where it should be. Bellatrix knows its location, but cannot
ever find the house or enter it. Luscius can hide Malfoy Manor from
Draco. The spell seems to be based around legal owner. The legal
owner is excused from the spell. So if Bellatrix owns the place, she
automatically gets in on the secret.

So, unless anybody can offer book proof that what Harry participated
in wasn't an FC but another protection spell being broken (personal
beliefs as to what the spells are defined to mean don't count. Nor
does the very mention of other spells, so it MUST be one of them count
either). Everyhting written showed us a house protected by FC, broken
for Harry, and preventing anyone not in on the secret yet knows where
it is supposed to be from ever finding it again

So yes, a house can be a secret hidden in the heart of a keeper, even
though it's location is known by others not in on the secret And
yes, those not in the know shall find the house simply gone, despite
knowing it's supposed to be there. Leaving them two choices: Move
on, or linger outside until they can get a person who knows to get the
keeper to tell them as well. We know this because that's what was
written in OOP.
Welsh Dog
2008-12-10 20:40:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toon
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Thommadura
I continue to believe that a Fidelius - as defined in the books -
protects a SECRET - and the house itself could not be a secret since
there were other not in on the spell who would have known where the
house was. (Narcissa and Bellatrix - and anyone else from the wizarding
world who might have visited - like Lucius)
In one of the quotes above DD says "we ourselves..."
Post by Thommadura
Post by Welsh Dog
... We do not know whether
the enchantments we ourselves have placed upon it,
for example, making it Unplottable, will hold now that
ownership has passed from Sirius’s hands.
Which means *they* made it unplottable! These are direct quotes from
the books.
Also the DE's are wizards and we know they can't see it because they
never saw any of the trio entering the house despite waiting in the
area where they knew the word Voldemort was being used.
Well let's see. Harry arrives, and notices the numbers skip by 1.
He's handed a piece of paper that says 12GP is the HQ of the OOP. He
still sees nothing. Harry is then told to think about what he just
read. As soon as he reaches the end of thinking 12GP, the house
appears.
We have what appears to be an invisible house, and a secret.
When Harry arrives, he doesn't know the secret. He can't see the
house. Only upon thinking about the secret does it appear. Thus
proving one must consciously acknowledge the secret they just learned
to break it.
Now then, is there any evidence to support the above was not an FC?
That there's a different spell which will make a house invisible until
someone is told it's there (and they think about it)? If so, then no
FC was in place. If not, the FC did indeed hide the house. It
doesn't matter who knows there is a house there usually, they can no
longer find it. hence why we see DE waiting across the street, unable
to do anything since there is no house where they know one must be.
This fist in with Snape saying he knows the location of the OOP, but
can't say it as he's the Secret Keeper. Again, that proves Harry was
part of an FC breaking.
No matter what other spells were placed on the house, we only bore
witness to the FC being broken. Nothing in the books suggest there
was a combo special going on. Break one, break them all. Nothign
suggests that Harry did anything to get passed the extra protection.
What we saw was the FC in action, and subsequently being broken. What
we see is that one can hide a house from someone else, even if they
know where it should be. Bellatrix knows its location, but cannot
ever find the house or enter it. Luscius can hide Malfoy Manor from
Draco. The spell seems to be based around legal owner. The legal
owner is excused from the spell. So if Bellatrix owns the place, she
automatically gets in on the secret.
So, unless anybody can offer book proof that what Harry participated
in wasn't an FC but another protection spell being broken (personal
beliefs as to what the spells are defined to mean don't count. Nor
does the very mention of other spells, so it MUST be one of them count
either). Everyhting written showed us a house protected by FC, broken
for Harry, and preventing anyone not in on the secret yet knows where
it is supposed to be from ever finding it again
So yes, a house can be a secret hidden in the heart of a keeper, even
though it's location is known by others not in on the secret And
yes, those not in the know shall find the house simply gone, despite
knowing it's supposed to be there. Leaving them two choices: Move
on, or linger outside until they can get a person who knows to get the
keeper to tell them as well. We know this because that's what was
written in OOP.
I'll have to read this a couple of times more to be sure I understand
what your saying... but it seems reasonable enough after reading it
just twice :)

Welshdog
--
News and views... from 'the land down under'.
Australian Opinion
http://australianopinion.com.au and
http://australianopinion.com
Toon
2008-12-11 15:46:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Toon
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Thommadura
I continue to believe that a Fidelius - as defined in the books -
protects a SECRET - and the house itself could not be a secret since
there were other not in on the spell who would have known where the
house was. (Narcissa and Bellatrix - and anyone else from the wizarding
world who might have visited - like Lucius)
In one of the quotes above DD says "we ourselves..."
Post by Thommadura
Post by Welsh Dog
... We do not know whether
the enchantments we ourselves have placed upon it,
for example, making it Unplottable, will hold now that
ownership has passed from Sirius’s hands.
Which means *they* made it unplottable! These are direct quotes from
the books.
Also the DE's are wizards and we know they can't see it because they
never saw any of the trio entering the house despite waiting in the
area where they knew the word Voldemort was being used.
Well let's see. Harry arrives, and notices the numbers skip by 1.
He's handed a piece of paper that says 12GP is the HQ of the OOP. He
still sees nothing. Harry is then told to think about what he just
read. As soon as he reaches the end of thinking 12GP, the house
appears.
We have what appears to be an invisible house, and a secret.
When Harry arrives, he doesn't know the secret. He can't see the
house. Only upon thinking about the secret does it appear. Thus
proving one must consciously acknowledge the secret they just learned
to break it.
Now then, is there any evidence to support the above was not an FC?
That there's a different spell which will make a house invisible until
someone is told it's there (and they think about it)? If so, then no
FC was in place. If not, the FC did indeed hide the house. It
doesn't matter who knows there is a house there usually, they can no
longer find it. hence why we see DE waiting across the street, unable
to do anything since there is no house where they know one must be.
This fist in with Snape saying he knows the location of the OOP, but
can't say it as he's the Secret Keeper. Again, that proves Harry was
part of an FC breaking.
No matter what other spells were placed on the house, we only bore
witness to the FC being broken. Nothing in the books suggest there
was a combo special going on. Break one, break them all. Nothign
suggests that Harry did anything to get passed the extra protection.
What we saw was the FC in action, and subsequently being broken. What
we see is that one can hide a house from someone else, even if they
know where it should be. Bellatrix knows its location, but cannot
ever find the house or enter it. Luscius can hide Malfoy Manor from
Draco. The spell seems to be based around legal owner. The legal
owner is excused from the spell. So if Bellatrix owns the place, she
automatically gets in on the secret.
So, unless anybody can offer book proof that what Harry participated
in wasn't an FC but another protection spell being broken (personal
beliefs as to what the spells are defined to mean don't count. Nor
does the very mention of other spells, so it MUST be one of them count
either). Everyhting written showed us a house protected by FC, broken
for Harry, and preventing anyone not in on the secret yet knows where
it is supposed to be from ever finding it again
So yes, a house can be a secret hidden in the heart of a keeper, even
though it's location is known by others not in on the secret And
yes, those not in the know shall find the house simply gone, despite
knowing it's supposed to be there. Leaving them two choices: Move
on, or linger outside until they can get a person who knows to get the
keeper to tell them as well. We know this because that's what was
written in OOP.
I'll have to read this a couple of times more to be sure I understand
what your saying... but it seems reasonable enough after reading it
just twice :)
Welshdog
It'd helped if I didn't leave out the not, in Snape's the secret
keeper.

To summarize, we see an invisible house protected by a secret. Harry
learns the secret then sees the house. Therefore, either a house can
be hidden from those who know about it, or this wasn't an FC. And
everything indicates it was indeed Fidelius in action.
Welsh Dog
2008-12-11 22:37:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toon
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Toon
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Thommadura
I continue to believe that a Fidelius - as defined in the books -
protects a SECRET - and the house itself could not be a secret since
there were other not in on the spell who would have known where the
house was. (Narcissa and Bellatrix - and anyone else from the wizarding
world who might have visited - like Lucius)
In one of the quotes above DD says "we ourselves..."
Post by Thommadura
Post by Welsh Dog
... We do not know whether
the enchantments we ourselves have placed upon it,
for example, making it Unplottable, will hold now that
ownership has passed from Sirius’s hands.
Which means *they* made it unplottable! These are direct quotes from
the books.
Also the DE's are wizards and we know they can't see it because they
never saw any of the trio entering the house despite waiting in the
area where they knew the word Voldemort was being used.
Well let's see. Harry arrives, and notices the numbers skip by 1.
He's handed a piece of paper that says 12GP is the HQ of the OOP. He
still sees nothing. Harry is then told to think about what he just
read. As soon as he reaches the end of thinking 12GP, the house
appears.
We have what appears to be an invisible house, and a secret.
When Harry arrives, he doesn't know the secret. He can't see the
house. Only upon thinking about the secret does it appear. Thus
proving one must consciously acknowledge the secret they just learned
to break it.
Now then, is there any evidence to support the above was not an FC?
That there's a different spell which will make a house invisible until
someone is told it's there (and they think about it)? If so, then no
FC was in place. If not, the FC did indeed hide the house. It
doesn't matter who knows there is a house there usually, they can no
longer find it. hence why we see DE waiting across the street, unable
to do anything since there is no house where they know one must be.
This fist in with Snape saying he knows the location of the OOP, but
can't say it as he's the Secret Keeper. Again, that proves Harry was
part of an FC breaking.
No matter what other spells were placed on the house, we only bore
witness to the FC being broken. Nothing in the books suggest there
was a combo special going on. Break one, break them all. Nothign
suggests that Harry did anything to get passed the extra protection.
What we saw was the FC in action, and subsequently being broken. What
we see is that one can hide a house from someone else, even if they
know where it should be. Bellatrix knows its location, but cannot
ever find the house or enter it. Luscius can hide Malfoy Manor from
Draco. The spell seems to be based around legal owner. The legal
owner is excused from the spell. So if Bellatrix owns the place, she
automatically gets in on the secret.
So, unless anybody can offer book proof that what Harry participated
in wasn't an FC but another protection spell being broken (personal
beliefs as to what the spells are defined to mean don't count. Nor
does the very mention of other spells, so it MUST be one of them count
either). Everyhting written showed us a house protected by FC, broken
for Harry, and preventing anyone not in on the secret yet knows where
it is supposed to be from ever finding it again
So yes, a house can be a secret hidden in the heart of a keeper, even
though it's location is known by others not in on the secret And
yes, those not in the know shall find the house simply gone, despite
knowing it's supposed to be there. Leaving them two choices: Move
on, or linger outside until they can get a person who knows to get the
keeper to tell them as well. We know this because that's what was
written in OOP.
I'll have to read this a couple of times more to be sure I understand
what your saying... but it seems reasonable enough after reading it
just twice :)
Welshdog
It'd helped if I didn't leave out the not, in Snape's the secret
keeper.
Yeah... that *does* make a big difference :D
Post by Toon
To summarize, we see an invisible house protected by a secret. Harry
learns the secret then sees the house. Therefore, either a house can
be hidden from those who know about it, or this wasn't an FC. And
everything indicates it was indeed Fidelius in action.
Agreed.

Welshdog
--
News and views... from 'the land down under'.
Australian Opinion
http://australianopinion.com.au and
http://australianopinion.com
Thommadura
2008-12-21 13:24:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toon
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Thommadura
I continue to believe that a Fidelius - as defined in the books -
protects a SECRET - and the house itself could not be a secret since
there were other not in on the spell who would have known where the
house was. (Narcissa and Bellatrix - and anyone else from the wizarding
world who might have visited - like Lucius)
In one of the quotes above DD says "we ourselves..."
Post by Thommadura
Post by Welsh Dog
... We do not know whether
the enchantments we ourselves have placed upon it,
for example, making it Unplottable, will hold now that
ownership has passed from Sirius’s hands.
Which means *they* made it unplottable! These are direct quotes from
the books.
Also the DE's are wizards and we know they can't see it because they
never saw any of the trio entering the house despite waiting in the
area where they knew the word Voldemort was being used.
Welshdog
Well let's see. Harry arrives, and notices the numbers skip by 1.
He's handed a piece of paper that says 12GP is the HQ of the OOP. He
still sees nothing. Harry is then told to think about what he just
read. As soon as he reaches the end of thinking 12GP, the house
appears.
We have what appears to be an invisible house, and a secret.
When Harry arrives, he doesn't know the secret. He can't see the
house. Only upon thinking about the secret does it appear. Thus
proving one must consciously acknowledge the secret they just learned
to break it.
Now then, is there any evidence to support the above was not an FC?
That there's a different spell which will make a house invisible until
someone is told it's there (and they think about it)? If so, then no
FC was in place. If not, the FC did indeed hide the house. It
doesn't matter who knows there is a house there usually, they can no
longer find it. hence why we see DE waiting across the street, unable
to do anything since there is no house where they know one must be.
This fist in with Snape saying he knows the location of the OOP, but
can't say it as he's the Secret Keeper. Again, that proves Harry was
part of an FC breaking.
No matter what other spells were placed on the house, we only bore
witness to the FC being broken. Nothing in the books suggest there
was a combo special going on. Break one, break them all. Nothign
suggests that Harry did anything to get passed the extra protection.
What we saw was the FC in action, and subsequently being broken. What
we see is that one can hide a house from someone else, even if they
know where it should be. Bellatrix knows its location, but cannot
ever find the house or enter it. Luscius can hide Malfoy Manor from
Draco. The spell seems to be based around legal owner. The legal
owner is excused from the spell. So if Bellatrix owns the place, she
automatically gets in on the secret.
So, unless anybody can offer book proof that what Harry participated
in wasn't an FC but another protection spell being broken (personal
beliefs as to what the spells are defined to mean don't count. Nor
does the very mention of other spells, so it MUST be one of them count
either). Everyhting written showed us a house protected by FC, broken
for Harry, and preventing anyone not in on the secret yet knows where
it is supposed to be from ever finding it again
So yes, a house can be a secret hidden in the heart of a keeper, even
though it's location is known by others not in on the secret And
yes, those not in the know shall find the house simply gone, despite
knowing it's supposed to be there. Leaving them two choices: Move
on, or linger outside until they can get a person who knows to get the
keeper to tell them as well. We know this because that's what was
written in OOP.
Actually - we ARE told later - by Sirius WHY the house was invisible.
There were indeed OTHER spells on the house - as written in OOP.

We are ALSO told -= in the books - that the FC hides a "secret". We also
know - based on OOP that Belatrix and Narcissa did indeed know where the
house was (Based on the family tree). So - the LOCATIONof the house was
NOT a secret.

We also were never told directly in the books that it was the FC that
hid the house.

So - in fact - there IS another explanation IN THE BOOK.

That is why we need the encyclopedia to determine which spell did what.
Thommadura
2008-12-21 13:30:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toon
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Thommadura
I continue to believe that a Fidelius - as defined in the books -
protects a SECRET - and the house itself could not be a secret since
there were other not in on the spell who would have known where the
house was. (Narcissa and Bellatrix - and anyone else from the wizarding
world who might have visited - like Lucius)
In one of the quotes above DD says "we ourselves..."
Post by Thommadura
Post by Welsh Dog
... We do not know whether
the enchantments we ourselves have placed upon it,
for example, making it Unplottable, will hold now that
ownership has passed from Sirius’s hands.
Which means *they* made it unplottable! These are direct quotes from
the books.
Also the DE's are wizards and we know they can't see it because they
never saw any of the trio entering the house despite waiting in the
area where they knew the word Voldemort was being used.
Welshdog
Well let's see. Harry arrives, and notices the numbers skip by 1.
He's handed a piece of paper that says 12GP is the HQ of the OOP. He
still sees nothing. Harry is then told to think about what he just
read. As soon as he reaches the end of thinking 12GP, the house
appears.
We have what appears to be an invisible house, and a secret.
When Harry arrives, he doesn't know the secret. He can't see the
house. Only upon thinking about the secret does it appear. Thus
proving one must consciously acknowledge the secret they just learned
to break it.
Now then, is there any evidence to support the above was not an FC?
That there's a different spell which will make a house invisible until
someone is told it's there (and they think about it)? If so, then no
FC was in place. If not, the FC did indeed hide the house. It
doesn't matter who knows there is a house there usually, they can no
longer find it. hence why we see DE waiting across the street, unable
to do anything since there is no house where they know one must be.
This fist in with Snape saying he knows the location of the OOP, but
can't say it as he's the Secret Keeper. Again, that proves Harry was
part of an FC breaking.
No matter what other spells were placed on the house, we only bore
witness to the FC being broken. Nothing in the books suggest there
was a combo special going on. Break one, break them all. Nothign
suggests that Harry did anything to get passed the extra protection.
What we saw was the FC in action, and subsequently being broken. What
we see is that one can hide a house from someone else, even if they
know where it should be. Bellatrix knows its location, but cannot
ever find the house or enter it. Luscius can hide Malfoy Manor from
Draco. The spell seems to be based around legal owner. The legal
owner is excused from the spell. So if Bellatrix owns the place, she
automatically gets in on the secret.
So, unless anybody can offer book proof that what Harry participated
in wasn't an FC but another protection spell being broken (personal
beliefs as to what the spells are defined to mean don't count. Nor
does the very mention of other spells, so it MUST be one of them count
either). Everyhting written showed us a house protected by FC, broken
for Harry, and preventing anyone not in on the secret yet knows where
it is supposed to be from ever finding it again
So yes, a house can be a secret hidden in the heart of a keeper, even
though it's location is known by others not in on the secret And
yes, those not in the know shall find the house simply gone, despite
knowing it's supposed to be there. Leaving them two choices: Move
on, or linger outside until they can get a person who knows to get the
keeper to tell them as well. We know this because that's what was
written in OOP.
The main problem with your argument is that the book does indeed provide
OTHER spells that Sirius mentioned to Harry that could have been the
ones the hid the house.

So - in fact - written in OOP is something that could prove you wrong as
well.
DaveD
2008-11-23 19:55:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Toon
Post by Welsh Dog
Even if Harry was the last one alive *he* was still 'The Potter
Family'.
Does one person make a family?
I'd have thought so... he was never a part of the Dursley family tho
could have claimed kinship to either the Potters *or* the Evanses
(were there any still alive).
I think a family is a related social group, usually 1/2 parents and 1+
children. 2 adults=a couple not a family, and a lone child=an orphan. One
person can't be a family on their own, only in a family.
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Toon
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by DaveD
Also, as suggested above, if the secret was more specific, such as
"...hiding from Voldy and the DEs..." then once Voldy knew, the secret
ceased to exist and therefore so did the FC.
Maybe Voldemort knew... but if the secret was cast to protect Harry
from the DE's as well... you have to ask how Lucious saw Harry with no
problems!? :)
This isn't a fidelius charm issue at Grimmauld Place because in that
case it *was* just the house that was hidden and the OOP members
otherwise continued their normal lives.
However the intention at Godric's Hollow was to prevent the Potters in
total being seen... yet after James and Lily died Harry was visible to
all... hence being sent to Petunia for safety with 'his mothers
blood'.
Then Harry was not the Potter family.
Which he clearly was... or he'd have been visible before Peter
betrayed them! So the spell must have been cast in a way which didn't
cover *him* specifically! So he wasn't protected properly by the
charm!!
Surely it was *Harry* that Voldemort wanted... not his parents... so
putting a charm on them and not him, or a charm that only worked while
*they* were alive was a bit pointless?
Hmm, I think your logic's got a bit muddled - if the spell was to protect
the "Potter family" then at first it would cover Harry as well as James and
Lily, as he was part of that family so long as they were all alive.

However, once James and Lily were killed, the family unit ceased to exist as
Harry was now an orphan and not part of the Potter family, so became
visible, even if the FC hadn't already been broken or nullified by Peter's
treachery.
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Toon
Post by Welsh Dog
For me the easiest way out is to suggest that Harry himself wasn't
able to be hidden because he already had an MOM trace on him which the
fidelius charm couldn't hide him from.
I'm not sure he did. Babies almost never do magic, and a Trace is not
needed. Seems to be placed upon you after your first year at
Hogwarts.
Yes, I think it happens when you start at Hogwarts (someone suggested during
the boat trip) - certainly it's not needed as parents are expected to
discipline their children (although goodness knows how muggle parents would
cope - I suspect it would probably be more like the Omen than Harry Potter
lol).

DaveD
Welsh Dog
2008-11-24 02:13:08 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 19:55:04 -0000, "DaveD"
Post by DaveD
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Toon
Post by Welsh Dog
Even if Harry was the last one alive *he* was still 'The Potter
Family'.
Does one person make a family?
I'd have thought so... he was never a part of the Dursley family tho
could have claimed kinship to either the Potters *or* the Evanses
(were there any still alive).
I think a family is a related social group, usually 1/2 parents and 1+
children. 2 adults=a couple not a family, and a lone child=an orphan. One
person can't be a family on their own, only in a family.
I see nothing in the definitions I've read that insists other family
members but be *alive* to qualify as part of the family. The fact
other members of his family are dead doesn't disqualify them from
family membership... and therefore whilst Harry might have been the
last *living* member of the family, he was nonetheless a part of the
Potter family!!
Post by DaveD
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Toon
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by DaveD
Also, as suggested above, if the secret was more specific, such as
"...hiding from Voldy and the DEs..." then once Voldy knew, the secret
ceased to exist and therefore so did the FC.
Maybe Voldemort knew... but if the secret was cast to protect Harry
from the DE's as well... you have to ask how Lucious saw Harry with no
problems!? :)
This isn't a fidelius charm issue at Grimmauld Place because in that
case it *was* just the house that was hidden and the OOP members
otherwise continued their normal lives.
However the intention at Godric's Hollow was to prevent the Potters in
total being seen... yet after James and Lily died Harry was visible to
all... hence being sent to Petunia for safety with 'his mothers
blood'.
Then Harry was not the Potter family.
Which he clearly was... or he'd have been visible before Peter
betrayed them! So the spell must have been cast in a way which didn't
cover *him* specifically! So he wasn't protected properly by the
charm!!
Surely it was *Harry* that Voldemort wanted... not his parents... so
putting a charm on them and not him, or a charm that only worked while
*they* were alive was a bit pointless?
Hmm, I think your logic's got a bit muddled - if the spell was to protect
the "Potter family" then at first it would cover Harry as well as James and
Lily, as he was part of that family so long as they were all alive.
I don't think so. Simply applying the spell to 'The 'Potter Family'
taken to its logical extreme would cover anyone who was even distantly
related to the Potters... including Voldemort himself.

So the spell had to be more specific than that bald statement. The
*intent* had to be to cover Harry as well... so *should* have remained
extant even if the other two living members of the family died!

And as I said above... the definition of 'family' doesn't disqualify
deceased members... so Harry would still be part of the family and
therefore covered by the spell!
Post by DaveD
However, once James and Lily were killed, the family unit ceased to exist as
Harry was now an orphan and not part of the Potter family, so became
visible, even if the FC hadn't already been broken or nullified by Peter's
treachery.
It seems to me to be a flaw in the logic of the story.
Post by DaveD
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Toon
Post by Welsh Dog
For me the easiest way out is to suggest that Harry himself wasn't
able to be hidden because he already had an MOM trace on him which the
fidelius charm couldn't hide him from.
I'm not sure he did. Babies almost never do magic, and a Trace is not
needed. Seems to be placed upon you after your first year at
Hogwarts.
Yes, I think it happens when you start at Hogwarts (someone suggested during
the boat trip) - certainly it's not needed as parents are expected to
discipline their children (although goodness knows how muggle parents would
cope - I suspect it would probably be more like the Omen than Harry Potter
lol).
True. Once they found out they *were* wizards... and could access
Diagon Ally and especially Flourish & Blotts... all hell would be let
loose!! And Hermione said she had tried out a few 'simple spells'
before arriving on the train so there was no restriction placed on her
before starting her school career about doing magic outside Hogwarts!

“Are you sure that’s a real spell?” said the girl.
“Well, it’s not very good, is it? I’ve tried a few
simple spells just for practice and it’s all worked
for me.

You'd think once exposed to the real magic world she'd have been told
magic outside school was severely restricted!

Welshdog
--
News and views... for people like youse!!

Australian Opinion
(http://australianopinion.com)

Not as strange as it looks!
Toon
2008-11-24 15:37:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Welsh Dog
So the spell had to be more specific than that bald statement. The
*intent* had to be to cover Harry as well... so *should* have remained
extant even if the other two living members of the family died!
Then Harrys' reveal could only have been brought about by the
termination of the spell. Whatever was sued, once Peter revealed it
to Voldemort, the spell was toast.

Though, when everyone else is dead, you're part of the bloodline, not
family. Harry had no family on his father's side. Erego, no Potter
family existed anymore, until he begot James Sirius.
Tom Morris
2008-11-24 20:39:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Welsh Dog
I don't think so. Simply applying the spell to 'The 'Potter Family'
taken to its logical extreme would cover anyone who was even distantly
related to the Potters... including Voldemort himself.
So the spell had to be more specific than that bald statement. The
*intent* had to be to cover Harry as well... so *should* have remained
extant even if the other two living members of the family died!
And as I said above... the definition of 'family' doesn't disqualify
deceased members... so Harry would still be part of the family and
therefore covered by the spell!
These discussions of family are most amusing, chaps. Keep it up.

"I am the great Lord Voldemort, and I shall destroy the Potter Family, as
defined by the social conventions of post-industrial, post-Thatcher middle
class British suburbia! Muhahahahah!"

Really not that scary, is it? It's like pulling away Darth Vader's mask
and finding a sociology lecturer hidden inside.

Seriously, though, there is no real objective definition of what a family
is. It's a group of mixed relationships that vary*. And, well, in an
alternative magic reality, there's no reason why the casting of spells
would conform strictly to logical rules, with each spell coming with a
supplied list of necessary and sufficient conditions for use. It's magic,
not a logic textbook.

* Google 'wittgenstein family resemblance'.
--
Tom Morris
<http://tommorris.org>
Welsh Dog
2008-11-25 20:27:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Morris
Post by Welsh Dog
I don't think so. Simply applying the spell to 'The 'Potter Family'
taken to its logical extreme would cover anyone who was even distantly
related to the Potters... including Voldemort himself.
So the spell had to be more specific than that bald statement. The
*intent* had to be to cover Harry as well... so *should* have remained
extant even if the other two living members of the family died!
And as I said above... the definition of 'family' doesn't disqualify
deceased members... so Harry would still be part of the family and
therefore covered by the spell!
These discussions of family are most amusing, chaps. Keep it up.
There's not a lot else to do but witter on about the finer points of
nonsense until the film comes out :)

Keeps the group alive if nothing else!!
Post by Tom Morris
"I am the great Lord Voldemort, and I shall destroy the Potter Family, as
defined by the social conventions of post-industrial, post-Thatcher middle
class British suburbia! Muhahahahah!"
Really not that scary, is it? It's like pulling away Darth Vader's mask
and finding a sociology lecturer hidden inside.
Seriously, though, there is no real objective definition of what a family
is. It's a group of mixed relationships that vary*. And, well, in an
alternative magic reality, there's no reason why the casting of spells
would conform strictly to logical rules, with each spell coming with a
supplied list of necessary and sufficient conditions for use. It's magic,
not a logic textbook.
True, but I think most of us in here have always assumed an internal
logic exists in the books which conforms to the standard repetitive
logic of the external world so if, for example, giving your wand a
swish and flick and saying 'Wingardium Leviosa' makes a thing rise in
the air once... then it will continue to do so under all
circumstances.

Ok I know an actuary would claim that having had it work 100 times
does *not* guarantee that it will either work for number 101, nor that
it will always work under all circumstances, but if we don't have that
internal logic then the books become far less meaningful.

Part of the appeal for me of the Potterverse *is* that internal
logical consistency which fosters a real suspension of disbelief and
lets my imagination run riot! :)
Post by Tom Morris
* Google 'wittgenstein family resemblance'.
Geez... not tried to read Tractatus since my teens! :D

Welshdog
--
News and views... for people like youse!!

Australian Opinion
(http://australianopinion.com)

Not as strange as it looks!
Tom Morris
2008-11-25 21:17:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Tom Morris
* Google 'wittgenstein family resemblance'.
Geez... not tried to read Tractatus since my teens! :D
Ah, that's okay. The family resemblances stuff is in the Philosophical
Investigations.
--
Tom Morris
<http://tommorris.org>
Welsh Dog
2008-11-27 02:26:13 UTC
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Post by Tom Morris
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Tom Morris
* Google 'wittgenstein family resemblance'.
Geez... not tried to read Tractatus since my teens! :D
Ah, that's okay. The family resemblances stuff is in the Philosophical
Investigations.
I'll have a dig around. The old mind has slowed down a bit over the
last half century or so :)

Welshdog
--
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Australian Opinion
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Not as strange as it looks!
Toon
2008-11-24 15:34:10 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 19:55:04 -0000, "DaveD"
Post by DaveD
Yes, I think it happens when you start at Hogwarts (someone suggested during
the boat trip) - certainly it's not needed as parents are expected to
discipline their children (although goodness knows how muggle parents would
cope - I suspect it would probably be more like the Omen than Harry Potter
lol).
DaveD
Oh goodie. A wizard born unto Zealot Christians. AHHH. The baby is
possessed. We must lock him in the cellar for the rest of his life.
t***@gmail.com
2016-10-05 12:02:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Toon
Post by Welsh Dog
Even if Harry was the last one alive *he* was still 'The Potter
Family'.
Does one person make a family?
I'd have thought so... he was never a part of the Dursley family tho
could have claimed kinship to either the Potters *or* the Evanses
(were there any still alive).
He was living with the Dursleys and the Lilly protection spell considered Number 4 Privet Street to be Harry's home. I assume that Vernon and Petunia would have claimed Harry as a deduction on their taxes each year! Hence, he was legally part of the Dursley family!
Chiphead
2008-11-10 12:25:19 UTC
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Post by Welsh Dog
From reading the group I think we established there are two distinct
types of Fidelius Charms - one affecting objects, e.g. Grimmauld Place
and the other affecting people, e.g. the one hiding James and Lily.
We know they differ because Grimmauld Place was 'invisible' to anyone
who wasn't a secret keeper... and the one on James and Lily was cast
such that even if you looked thru their lounge room window you'd not
see them!!
We know the charm on James and Lily died with them (and before their
secret keeper died) because the cottage was visible to Harry and
Hermione when they visited Godric's Hollow... before the episode at
Malfoy Manor.
Having established that... and knowing that *Harry* was thought to be
the intended target of Voldemort's attack on the family, doesn't it
seem strange that Harry himself was the only one *not* subject to the
Fidelius Charm intended to protect him??
Or was the charm cast such that anyone could see James and Lily...
except Voldemort and the Death Eaters? In which case why did Harry
think the Fidelius Charm had been cast over the house??
Am I missing something here??
Welshdog
--
News and views... for people like youse!!
Australian Opinion
(http://australianopinion.com)
Not as strange as it looks!
Rather then just telling V the secret I think Peter broke the charm. This
would mean it fell just when it was needed most.
This would anser why everything happened as the books show it.
Alex Clark
2008-11-21 00:31:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Welsh Dog
From reading the group I think we established there are two distinct
types of Fidelius Charms - one affecting objects, e.g. Grimmauld Place
and the other affecting people, e.g. the one hiding James and Lily.
We know they differ because Grimmauld Place was 'invisible' to anyone
who wasn't a secret keeper... and the one on James and Lily was cast
such that even if you looked thru their lounge room window you'd not
see them!!
We know the charm on James and Lily died with them (and before their
secret keeper died) because the cottage was visible to Harry and
Hermione when they visited Godric's Hollow... before the episode at
Malfoy Manor.
Having established that... and knowing that *Harry* was thought to be
the intended target of Voldemort's attack on the family, doesn't it
seem strange that Harry himself was the only one *not* subject to the
Fidelius Charm intended to protect him??
Or was the charm cast such that anyone could see James and Lily...
except Voldemort and the Death Eaters? In which case why did Harry
think the Fidelius Charm had been cast over the house??
Am I missing something here??
There is a very good reason why Harry should not have been concealed
if his parents were not with him. Even if they died in an accident or
were Imperiused or Confunded into going away, and none of the enemy
knew the secret, Harry would have been in grave danger. He would have
been a toddler (little more than one year old), alone in a locked and
concealed house, with no easy supply of drinking water. Under those
circumstances he could have been dead from thirst within one or two
days.

I expect that Rowling, like most mothers with young children, would
have known that an infant or toddler should not be left unattended,
especially not for a long time, and so she would have figured that
Lily would have thought the same.

There was a recent news story about a toddler who was killed by
withholding drinking water for a week. The killer got off easy (I
think he was found guilty of manslaughter), which I would find not
only outrageous but incomprehensible if I did not know that a lot of
supposedly educated people are abysmally ignorant about the basic
needs of living humans. But I do not suppose that Lily was intended by
her author to suffer from any such ignorance, so I trust that she
understood this point even if it is lost on many readers.

--
Alex Clark
http://www.cafepress.com/albgoode
http://www.myspace.com/powdourfort

I am Dr. Love Rot Mold (an anagram rejected by Tom Riddle)
Welsh Dog
2008-11-21 05:45:12 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 16:31:38 -0800 (PST), Alex Clark
Post by Alex Clark
Post by Welsh Dog
From reading the group I think we established there are two distinct
types of Fidelius Charms - one affecting objects, e.g. Grimmauld Place
and the other affecting people, e.g. the one hiding James and Lily.
We know they differ because Grimmauld Place was 'invisible' to anyone
who wasn't a secret keeper... and the one on James and Lily was cast
such that even if you looked thru their lounge room window you'd not
see them!!
We know the charm on James and Lily died with them (and before their
secret keeper died) because the cottage was visible to Harry and
Hermione when they visited Godric's Hollow... before the episode at
Malfoy Manor.
Having established that... and knowing that *Harry* was thought to be
the intended target of Voldemort's attack on the family, doesn't it
seem strange that Harry himself was the only one *not* subject to the
Fidelius Charm intended to protect him??
Or was the charm cast such that anyone could see James and Lily...
except Voldemort and the Death Eaters? In which case why did Harry
think the Fidelius Charm had been cast over the house??
Am I missing something here??
There is a very good reason why Harry should not have been concealed
if his parents were not with him. Even if they died in an accident or
were Imperiused or Confunded into going away, and none of the enemy
knew the secret, Harry would have been in grave danger. He would have
been a toddler (little more than one year old), alone in a locked and
concealed house, with no easy supply of drinking water. Under those
circumstances he could have been dead from thirst within one or two
days.
That's all very well but there *were* people who visited the house who
would have been able to see Harry... like Hagrid, Dumbledore... and of
course Batty!!

He would almost certainly have been found and the dangers were far
greater of Voldemort killing him!!
Post by Alex Clark
I expect that Rowling, like most mothers with young children, would
have known that an infant or toddler should not be left unattended,
especially not for a long time, and so she would have figured that
Lily would have thought the same.
There was a recent news story about a toddler who was killed by
withholding drinking water for a week. The killer got off easy (I
think he was found guilty of manslaughter), which I would find not
only outrageous but incomprehensible if I did not know that a lot of
supposedly educated people are abysmally ignorant about the basic
needs of living humans. But I do not suppose that Lily was intended by
her author to suffer from any such ignorance, so I trust that she
understood this point even if it is lost on many readers.
It's a reasonable point but I'd still suggest the risks from Voldemort
and the DE's far outweighed the risks of being left alive alone
immediately after both had parents!

Besides which... if *they* were dead then almost certainly they could
expect *Harry* to also be killed! It was only Voldemort's unstable
soul being confronted with the charm created by Lily's sacrifice that
created the scenario in which Harry lived!

Welshdog
--
News and views... for people like youse!!

Australian Opinion
(http://australianopinion.com)

Not as strange as it looks!
Toon
2008-11-21 15:16:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Welsh Dog
Post by Alex Clark
I expect that Rowling, like most mothers with young children, would
have known that an infant or toddler should not be left unattended,
especially not for a long time, and so she would have figured that
Lily would have thought the same.
There was a recent news story about a toddler who was killed by
withholding drinking water for a week. The killer got off easy (I
think he was found guilty of manslaughter), which I would find not
only outrageous but incomprehensible if I did not know that a lot of
supposedly educated people are abysmally ignorant about the basic
needs of living humans. But I do not suppose that Lily was intended by
her author to suffer from any such ignorance, so I trust that she
understood this point even if it is lost on many readers.
It's a reasonable point but I'd still suggest the risks from Voldemort
and the DE's far outweighed the risks of being left alive alone
immediately after both had parents!
Besides which... if *they* were dead then almost certainly they could
expect *Harry* to also be killed! It was only Voldemort's unstable
soul being confronted with the charm created by Lily's sacrifice that
created the scenario in which Harry lived!
Welshdog
Well, DD find it perfectly normal to leave a baby on a doorstep all
night long. So, why bother protecting Harry?
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