Muggles vs. Wizards

[adric22]

It occurred to me while I was reading the last book that wizards may
have some difficulty fighting muggles. Sure, wizards have wands and
all, but Muggles have machine guns, tanks, and most of all - nuclear
weapons. As I was reading about the various battles one thing that
was constantly happening was that somebody would shoot a curse at
somebody else, often missing, and quite often the intended target
would jump out of the way. I kept thinking to myself that a few well-
armed muggles in the battle of hogwarts might have actually stood a
chance, especially with all the distraction from the other wizards
going on. And if wizards can jump out of the way of flying curses,
then so could muggles.

Another thing that became obvious to me about Voldemort is that he was
never in control of more than England. Which means if he had gained
control of England and enslaved the muggles, I think the rest of the
world's muggles might have interviened, especially if they thought
they might be next. I don't care how powerfull a handfull of death
eaters coupled with Voldemort may be. If the rest of the world's
muggle armies converged on England with intent to destroy voldemort, I
am fairly certain he would be, at minimum, contained, but with the
help of a few wizards here and there, defeated. And - as I mentioned
before, I wonder if any of voldemort's magic would me of use against a
nuclear bomb. I tend to wonder if even the horcruxes could have
survived temperatures in the millions of degrees.

[Solnichka Frankenstein]

Post by adric22
It occurred to me while I was reading the last book that wizards may
have some difficulty fighting muggles. Sure, wizards have wands and
all, but Muggles have machine guns, tanks, and most of all - nuclear
weapons. As I was reading about the various battles one thing that
was constantly happening was that somebody would shoot a curse at
somebody else, often missing, and quite often the intended target
would jump out of the way. I kept thinking to myself that a few well-
armed muggles in the battle of hogwarts might have actually stood a
chance, especially with all the distraction from the other wizards
going on. And if wizards can jump out of the way of flying curses,
then so could muggles.
Another thing that became obvious to me about Voldemort is that he was
never in control of more than England. Which means if he had gained
control of England and enslaved the muggles, I think the rest of the
world's muggles might have interviened, especially if they thought
they might be next. I don't care how powerfull a handfull of death
eaters coupled with Voldemort may be. If the rest of the world's
muggle armies converged on England with intent to destroy voldemort, I
am fairly certain he would be, at minimum, contained, but with the
help of a few wizards here and there, defeated. And - as I mentioned
before, I wonder if any of voldemort's magic would me of use against a
nuclear bomb. I tend to wonder if even the horcruxes could have
survived temperatures in the millions of degrees.

Rowling's wizarding world does certainly live in a UK bubble. But then
again, so did Tolkien's Middle Earth.

[Brian Wakeling]

In a speech called

Post by Solnichka Frankenstein

Post by adric22
It occurred to me while I was reading the last book that wizards may
have some difficulty fighting muggles. Sure, wizards have wands and
all, but Muggles have machine guns, tanks, and most of all -
nuclear
weapons. As I was reading about the various battles one thing that
was constantly happening was that somebody would shoot a curse at
somebody else, often missing, and quite often the intended target
would jump out of the way. I kept thinking to myself that a few
well- armed muggles in the battle of hogwarts might have actually
stood a chance, especially with all the distraction from the other
wizards going on. And if wizards can jump out of the way of flying
curses, then so could muggles.
Another thing that became obvious to me about Voldemort is that he
was never in control of more than England. Which means if he had
gained control of England and enslaved the muggles, I think the
rest
of the world's muggles might have interviened, especially if they
thought they might be next. I don't care how powerfull a handfull
of death eaters coupled with Voldemort may be. If the rest of the
world's muggle armies converged on England with intent to destroy
voldemort, I am fairly certain he would be, at minimum, contained,
but with the help of a few wizards here and there, defeated. And -
as I mentioned before, I wonder if any of voldemort's magic would
me
of use against a nuclear bomb. I tend to wonder if even the
horcruxes could have survived temperatures in the millions of
degrees.

Rowling's wizarding world does certainly live in a UK bubble. But then
again, so did Tolkien's Middle Earth.

As did HG Welles' "The War of the Worlds"

[Fat Sam]

Post by Solnichka Frankenstein

Post by adric22
It occurred to me while I was reading the last book that wizards may
have some difficulty fighting muggles. Sure, wizards have wands and
all, but Muggles have machine guns, tanks, and most of all - nuclear
weapons. As I was reading about the various battles one thing that
was constantly happening was that somebody would shoot a curse at
somebody else, often missing, and quite often the intended target
would jump out of the way. I kept thinking to myself that a few
well- armed muggles in the battle of hogwarts might have actually
stood a chance, especially with all the distraction from the other
wizards going on. And if wizards can jump out of the way of flying
curses, then so could muggles.
Another thing that became obvious to me about Voldemort is that he
was never in control of more than England. Which means if he had
gained control of England and enslaved the muggles, I think the rest
of the world's muggles might have interviened, especially if they
thought they might be next. I don't care how powerfull a handfull
of death eaters coupled with Voldemort may be. If the rest of the
world's muggle armies converged on England with intent to destroy
voldemort, I am fairly certain he would be, at minimum, contained,
but with the help of a few wizards here and there, defeated. And -
as I mentioned before, I wonder if any of voldemort's magic would me
of use against a nuclear bomb. I tend to wonder if even the
horcruxes could have survived temperatures in the millions of
degrees.

Rowling's wizarding world does certainly live in a UK bubble. But then
again, so did Tolkien's Middle Earth.

Not really.
It's set in the UK. But all stories have to be set somewhere.
She does make reference to other countries. The USA, France, Albania to
mention a few.

[adric22]

Post by Fat Sam
It's set in the UK. But all stories have to be set somewhere.
She does make reference to other countries. The USA, France, Albania to
mention a few.- Hide quoted text -

When did she mention the USA?

[Dave Hinz]

Post by adric22

Post by Fat Sam
It's set in the UK. But all stories have to be set somewhere.
She does make reference to other countries. The USA, France, Albania to
mention a few.- Hide quoted text -

When did she mention the USA?

I think in the campground at the Wizarding World Cup.

[Fat Sam]

Post by Dave Hinz

Post by adric22

Post by Fat Sam
It's set in the UK. But all stories have to be set somewhere.
She does make reference to other countries. The USA, France,
Albania to mention a few.- Hide quoted text -

When did she mention the USA?

I think in the campground at the Wizarding World Cup.

Correct.
She even named some witches from the US.

[Drusilla]

Post by adric22

Post by Fat Sam
It's set in the UK. But all stories have to be set somewhere.
She does make reference to other countries. The USA, France, Albania to
mention a few.- Hide quoted text -

When did she mention the USA?

According to HP-lexicon, few times:

[...] the United States is home to the towns of Fitchburg, Salem, and
Sweetwater, and is also the natural habitat of the clabbert and the
doxy. We also know that Quidditch is not particularly popular there
thanks to Quodpot - a game invented by Abraham Peasegood which is played
almost exclusively in the U.S. (QA8).

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Drusilla

Post by adric22

Post by Fat Sam
It's set in the UK. But all stories have to be set somewhere.
She does make reference to other countries. The USA, France, Albania to
mention a few.- Hide quoted text -

When did she mention the USA?

[...] the United States is home to the towns of Fitchburg, Salem, and
Sweetwater, and is also the natural habitat of the clabbert and the
doxy. We also know that Quidditch is not particularly popular there
thanks to Quodpot - a game invented by Abraham Peasegood which is played
almost exclusively in the U.S. (QA8).

Has Bush asked the American Minister of Magic for help in subduing Iraq?

[Louis Epstein]

Solnichka Frankenstein <***@gmail.com> wrote:
: On Jul 29, 9:22 am, adric22 <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
:> It occurred to me while I was reading the last book that wizards may
:> have some difficulty fighting muggles. Sure, wizards have wands and
:> all, but Muggles have machine guns, tanks, and most of all - nuclear
:> weapons. As I was reading about the various battles one thing that
:> was constantly happening was that somebody would shoot a curse at
:> somebody else, often missing, and quite often the intended target
:> would jump out of the way. I kept thinking to myself that a few well-
:> armed muggles in the battle of hogwarts might have actually stood a
:> chance, especially with all the distraction from the other wizards
:> going on. And if wizards can jump out of the way of flying curses,
:> then so could muggles.
:>
:> Another thing that became obvious to me about Voldemort is that he was
:> never in control of more than England. Which means if he had gained
:> control of England and enslaved the muggles, I think the rest of the
:> world's muggles might have interviened, especially if they thought
:> they might be next. I don't care how powerfull a handfull of death
:> eaters coupled with Voldemort may be. If the rest of the world's
:> muggle armies converged on England with intent to destroy voldemort, I
:> am fairly certain he would be, at minimum, contained, but with the
:> help of a few wizards here and there, defeated. And - as I mentioned
:> before, I wonder if any of voldemort's magic would me of use against a
:> nuclear bomb. I tend to wonder if even the horcruxes could have
:> survived temperatures in the millions of degrees.
:
: Rowling's wizarding world does certainly live in a UK bubble. But then
: again, so did Tolkien's Middle Earth.

Rowling's story is set in the UK,
The Lord of The Rings is not related to the UK
(unless you count Arnor & Gondor as a United Kingdom!)

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

[Welsh Dog]

<snip>

Post by Louis Epstein
: Rowling's wizarding world does certainly live in a UK bubble. But then
: again, so did Tolkien's Middle Earth.
Rowling's story is set in the UK,
The Lord of The Rings is not related to the UK
(unless you count Arnor & Gondor as a United Kingdom!)

I think it's accepted universally that the Shire was the 'Middle
England' of Tokien's youth.

Welshdog

[Louis Epstein]

Welsh Dog <***@gmail.com> wrote:
: On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 22:59:32 -0500, Louis Epstein <***@main.put.com>
: wrote:
:>Solnichka Frankenstein <***@gmail.com> wrote:
:>: On Jul 29, 9:22 am, adric22 <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
:
: <snip>
:
:>: Rowling's wizarding world does certainly live in a UK bubble. But then
:>: again, so did Tolkien's Middle Earth.
:
:>Rowling's story is set in the UK,
:>The Lord of The Rings is not related to the UK
:>(unless you count Arnor & Gondor as a United Kingdom!)
:
: I think it's accepted universally that the Shire was the 'Middle
: England' of Tokien's youth.
:
: Welshdog

Whatever the cultural similarities between the Shire and England,
little of the action takes place there...the most "Anglo-Saxon"
people encountered are the Rohirrim who live far away.

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

[Beowulf Trollshammer]

Post by Louis Epstein
Whatever the cultural similarities between the Shire and England,
little of the action takes place there...the most "Anglo-Saxon"
people encountered are the Rohirrim who live far away.

A long time ago I participated in a discussion in
alt.fan.tolkien about the existing parallelisms between Middle Earth's
nations and historical ones, and some guy told me that Gondor was
supposed to be the Bizantine Empire.

[o***@earthlink.net]

On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 14:40:08 +0200 (CEST), Beowulf Trollshammer

Post by Beowulf Trollshammer

Post by Louis Epstein
Whatever the cultural similarities between the Shire and England,
little of the action takes place there...the most "Anglo-Saxon"
people encountered are the Rohirrim who live far away.

A long time ago I participated in a discussion in
alt.fan.tolkien about the existing parallelisms between Middle Earth's
nations and historical ones, and some guy told me that Gondor was
supposed to be the Bizantine Empire.

Not really, though that's the most common analogy. Byzantium derived
from the breakup of the Roman Empire into the Eastern and Western
kingdoms due to difficulties maintaining a unified empire of that
size. Before the 4th Age there had never been a unified empire
between the Dúnedain kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor. Gondor was largely
made up of survivors of the drowning of Númenor and Arnor had been
settled centuries before. Elendil became the "high king of Arnor" and
his sons founded Gondor but he never exerted authority over their
realm. When Arnor collapsed under the strain of civil war and later
the Witch King's invasions the kingship was abandoned, though the line
continued through to Aragorn. Eventually Aragorn assumed the (long
vacant) Gondorian throne and unified the kingdoms, reestablishing the
Arnorian kingdom through recolonization.

The Peter Jackson film interpretation of Lord of the Rings probably is
responsible for this misinterpretation because in the film he gave
Gondor a Byzantine flavor through costumes, weapons, and technology.
--
Paleontologists recently announced they have
discovered when Man first discovered language:
Just after he invented the hammer and nail.

And it was BAD language.

[Tangent]

Post by adric22
It occurred to me while I was reading the last book that wizards may
have some difficulty fighting muggles. Sure, wizards have wands and
all, but Muggles have machine guns, tanks, and most of all - nuclear
weapons. As I was reading about the various battles one thing that
was constantly happening was that somebody would shoot a curse at
somebody else, often missing, and quite often the intended target
would jump out of the way. I kept thinking to myself that a few well-
armed muggles in the battle of hogwarts might have actually stood a
chance, especially with all the distraction from the other wizards
going on. And if wizards can jump out of the way of flying curses,
then so could muggles.

This is probably why wizards still maintain secrecy - if Muggle
society were united, they'd stand little chance unless there were a
lot more of them. But a single, fairly capable and morally unhibited
wizard can probably cope with even a large group of Muggles.

What V would probably seek to do is work by stealth rather than open
confrontation - using the Imperius on leaders and so on - until he
would be ready to launch an open takeover. This might, of course, take
decades, but what does that matter to someone who thinks they can live
for ever?

Post by adric22
Another thing that became obvious to me about Voldemort is that he was
never in control of more than England. Which means if he had gained
control of England and enslaved the muggles, I think the rest of the
world's muggles might have interviened, especially if they thought
they might be next. I don't care how powerfull a handfull of death
eaters coupled with Voldemort may be. If the rest of the world's
muggle armies converged on England with intent to destroy voldemort, I
am fairly certain he would be, at minimum, contained, but with the
help of a few wizards here and there, defeated. And - as I mentioned
before, I wonder if any of voldemort's magic would me of use against a
nuclear bomb. I tend to wonder if even the horcruxes could have
survived temperatures in the millions of degrees.

He'd presumably establish control over the entire wizarding world (and
it might not be the case that the "magical power" of nations is
equivalent to their Muggle power - for instance, the US could be much
weaker), and then start his assault on Muggledom.

[Sue H]

Post by adric22
It occurred to me while I was reading the last book that wizards may
have some difficulty fighting muggles. Sure, wizards have wands and
all, but Muggles have machine guns, tanks, and most of all - nuclear
weapons. As I was reading about the various battles one thing that
was constantly happening was that somebody would shoot a curse at
somebody else, often missing, and quite often the intended target
would jump out of the way. I kept thinking to myself that a few well-
armed muggles in the battle of hogwarts might have actually stood a
chance, especially with all the distraction from the other wizards
going on. And if wizards can jump out of the way of flying curses,
then so could muggles.

ah, but imagine the stuff they could do when not seen. They could
hide around a corner and point the want at a car and make it flip.
they could use the Imperious curse on many muggles to do their bidding
for them, allowing muggles to shoot one another. They could slip
potions into their water systems enmasse. They also can fly and
apparate; which would make them harder to kill. they could apperate
behind their enemy and get them from behind! I'd pick wizard over
muggle any day.

Post by adric22
Another thing that became obvious to me about Voldemort is that he was
never in control of more than England. Which means if he had gained
control of England and enslaved the muggles, I think the rest of the
world's muggles might have interviened, especially if they thought
they might be next. I don't care how powerfull a handfull of death
eaters coupled with Voldemort may be. If the rest of the world's
muggle armies converged on England with intent to destroy voldemort, I
am fairly certain he would be, at minimum, contained, but with the
help of a few wizards here and there, defeated. And - as I mentioned
before, I wonder if any of voldemort's magic would me of use against a
nuclear bomb. I tend to wonder if even the horcruxes could have
survived temperatures in the millions of degrees.

ah, but then again, every world "would be" dominator like say
Alexander the Great or Hitler started with just a few and one country
too. The point is to recruit and grow and then invade more. His
ultimate goal was to control the muggle world by controling the wizard
world first wasn't it? However, the muggles were clueless so how could
they converge and fight those things which they could not see?
Remember they had enchantments on places like the Quidditch matches
and Hogwarts etc so they can't be seen. Some stumbled upon it
accidentally but before they could get back out and tell others, their
memories were altered.

[o***@earthlink.net]

Post by adric22
It occurred to me while I was reading the last book that wizards may
have some difficulty fighting muggles.

The real problem of course is that muggles outnumber wizards something
immensely. Direct control might well be impossible. Also, only a
handful of wizards are powerful enough to pose a real threat to the
Muggle world. Couple with this the fact that a large number of
wizards are muggle-born and hence have sympathy for them and you might
have the situation we have in JKR's books, where most wizards prefer
leaving the Muggles alone. Muggle-born wizards seem to be among the
most powerful; Hermione and even Tom Riddle Jr. himself have
Muggle-blood in them. Inbreeding between the wizards seems to have
weakened their powers and produced increasing numbers of Squibs in
each generation.
--
Paleontologists recently announced they have
discovered when Man first discovered language:
Just after he invented the hammer and nail.

And it was BAD language.

[Fat Sam]

Post by adric22
It occurred to me while I was reading the last book that wizards may
have some difficulty fighting muggles. Sure, wizards have wands and
all, but Muggles have machine guns, tanks, and most of all - nuclear
weapons. As I was reading about the various battles one thing that
was constantly happening was that somebody would shoot a curse at
somebody else, often missing, and quite often the intended target
would jump out of the way. I kept thinking to myself that a few well-
armed muggles in the battle of hogwarts might have actually stood a
chance, especially with all the distraction from the other wizards
going on. And if wizards can jump out of the way of flying curses,
then so could muggles.

But couldn't wizards just stop bullets in mid air by waving their wand and
uttering "Arresto Momentum"?

Post by adric22
Another thing that became obvious to me about Voldemort is that he was
never in control of more than England.

I think it was fairly obvious that his influence covered more than just
England.
What about Scotland, where Hogwarts is located?
Then there's Wales, and Ireland too.
His influence extended to Eastern Europe too, because Karkaroff was a Death
Eater.

Post by adric22
Which means if he had gained
control of England and enslaved the muggles, I think the rest of the
world's muggles might have interviened, especially if they thought
they might be next.

But the muggles were oblivious to his existence. How would they have kown
they'd be next?

Post by adric22
I don't care how powerfull a handfull of death
eaters coupled with Voldemort may be. If the rest of the world's
muggle armies converged on England with intent to destroy voldemort, I
am fairly certain he would be, at minimum, contained, but with the
help of a few wizards here and there, defeated. And - as I mentioned
before, I wonder if any of voldemort's magic would me of use against a
nuclear bomb. I tend to wonder if even the horcruxes could have
survived temperatures in the millions of degrees.

I think you're taking it all a bit too seriously.
It's just a highly entertaining work of fiction. None of it is real.
Time for some fresh air and a reality check methinks.

[John VanSickle]

Post by adric22
It occurred to me while I was reading the last book that wizards may
have some difficulty fighting muggles. Sure, wizards have wands and
all, but Muggles have machine guns, tanks, and most of all - nuclear
weapons. As I was reading about the various battles one thing that
was constantly happening was that somebody would shoot a curse at
somebody else, often missing, and quite often the intended target
would jump out of the way. I kept thinking to myself that a few well-
armed muggles in the battle of hogwarts might have actually stood a
chance, especially with all the distraction from the other wizards
going on. And if wizards can jump out of the way of flying curses,
then so could muggles.

The war between Muggles and wizards is not a cut-and-dried affair.

The primary complicating factor is that many wizards have Muggle
relatives, and so consequently the loyalty of wizards as a while would
be unreliable at best.

Consequently, from a strategic viewpoint, the first objective of the
anti-Muggle wizards will be focused on eradicating pro-Muggle and
Muggle-neutral elements in the wizard populace. That means the
Half-bloods and Muggleborns would be the first ones rounded up, which is
precisely what we see in DH.

Post by adric22
Another thing that became obvious to me about Voldemort is that he was
never in control of more than England. Which means if he had gained
control of England and enslaved the muggles, I think the rest of the
world's muggles might have interviened, especially if they thought
they might be next.

The other Muggle world leaders were almost certainly entirely ignorant
of the wizard war in Britain. The next step for Voldemort is to use
England as a base for destabilizing those wizarding governments which
did not favor enslaving the Muggles.

We frankly don't know what kind of government American wizards, for
instance, have formed; it may be that the political organization of
American wizards bears no resemblance at all to that of the Muggle
political system. We already know that the political organization of
European wizards is not strictly identical to the Muggles (Transylvania
is part of Romania in the Muggle world, but is sovereign in the
wizarding world).

Regards,
John

[Tim Bruening]

Post by adric22
It occurred to me while I was reading the last book that wizards may
have some difficulty fighting muggles. Sure, wizards have wands and
all, but Muggles have machine guns, tanks, and most of all - nuclear
weapons. As I was reading about the various battles one thing that
was constantly happening was that somebody would shoot a curse at
somebody else, often missing, and quite often the intended target
would jump out of the way. I kept thinking to myself that a few well-
armed muggles in the battle of hogwarts might have actually stood a
chance, especially with all the distraction from the other wizards
going on. And if wizards can jump out of the way of flying curses,
then so could muggles.
Another thing that became obvious to me about Voldemort is that he was
never in control of more than England. Which means if he had gained
control of England and enslaved the muggles, I think the rest of the
world's muggles might have interviened, especially if they thought
they might be next. I don't care how powerfull a handfull of death
eaters coupled with Voldemort may be. If the rest of the world's
muggle armies converged on England with intent to destroy voldemort, I
am fairly certain he would be, at minimum, contained, but with the
help of a few wizards here and there, defeated. And - as I mentioned
before, I wonder if any of voldemort's magic would me of use against a
nuclear bomb. I tend to wonder if even the horcruxes could have
survived temperatures in the millions of degrees.

To avert the above, Voldemort could hook up with peace activists (Attack
England? No!), who would argue for giving UN inspections a chance to
work, and arguing against crippling sanctions which have killed hundreds
of thousands of British children.

Voldemort: All I am saying, is give peace a chance.....

Voldemort: Where have the flowers gone.....

Voldemort: The answer, is blowing in the wind......

V for Voldemort!

[Tim Bruening]

Post by adric22
It occurred to me while I was reading the last book that wizards may
have some difficulty fighting muggles. Sure, wizards have wands and
all, but Muggles have machine guns, tanks, and most of all - nuclear
weapons. As I was reading about the various battles one thing that
was constantly happening was that somebody would shoot a curse at
somebody else, often missing, and quite often the intended target
would jump out of the way. I kept thinking to myself that a few well-
armed muggles in the battle of hogwarts might have actually stood a
chance, especially with all the distraction from the other wizards
going on. And if wizards can jump out of the way of flying curses,
then so could muggles.
Another thing that became obvious to me about Voldemort is that he was
never in control of more than England. Which means if he had gained
control of England and enslaved the muggles, I think the rest of the
world's muggles might have interviened, especially if they thought
they might be next. I don't care how powerfull a handfull of death
eaters coupled with Voldemort may be. If the rest of the world's
muggle armies converged on England with intent to destroy voldemort, I
am fairly certain he would be, at minimum, contained, but with the
help of a few wizards here and there, defeated. And - as I mentioned
before, I wonder if any of voldemort's magic would me of use against a
nuclear bomb. I tend to wonder if even the horcruxes could have
survived temperatures in the millions of degrees.

To avert the above, Voldemort could hook up with peace activists (Attack
England? No!), who would argue for giving UN inspections a chance to
work, and arguing against crippling sanctions which have killed hundreds
of thousands of British children.

Voldemort: The answer, my friends, is blowing in the wind......

[Tim Bruening]

Post by adric22
It occurred to me while I was reading the last book that wizards may
have some difficulty fighting muggles. Sure, wizards have wands and
all, but Muggles have machine guns, tanks, and most of all - nuclear
weapons. As I was reading about the various battles one thing that
was constantly happening was that somebody would shoot a curse at
somebody else, often missing, and quite often the intended target
would jump out of the way. I kept thinking to myself that a few well-
armed muggles in the battle of hogwarts might have actually stood a
chance, especially with all the distraction from the other wizards
going on. And if wizards can jump out of the way of flying curses,
then so could muggles.
Another thing that became obvious to me about Voldemort is that he was
never in control of more than England. Which means if he had gained
control of England and enslaved the muggles, I think the rest of the
world's muggles might have interviened, especially if they thought
they might be next. I don't care how powerfull a handfull of death
eaters coupled with Voldemort may be. If the rest of the world's
muggle armies converged on England with intent to destroy voldemort, I
am fairly certain he would be, at minimum, contained, but with the
help of a few wizards here and there, defeated. And - as I mentioned
before, I wonder if any of voldemort's magic would me of use against a
nuclear bomb. I tend to wonder if even the horcruxes could have
survived temperatures in the millions of degrees.

However, Voldemort would have had control (via Prime Minister Tony Blair)
of Britian's nukes, and could have threatened to use them against anyone
who invaded Britain, thus forcing the rest of the Muggle world to cancel
their invasion plans.

[Christian Potzinger]

Post by Tim Bruening
However, Voldemort would have had control (via Prime Minister
Tony Blair) of Britian's nukes, and could have threatened to
use them against anyone who invaded Britain, thus forcing the
rest of the Muggle world to cancel their invasion plans.

Life doesn't work that simply, only it Books it does.

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening
However, Voldemort would have had control (via Prime Minister
Tony Blair) of Britian's nukes, and could have threatened to
use them against anyone who invaded Britain, thus forcing the
rest of the Muggle world to cancel their invasion plans.

Life doesn't work that simply, only it Books it does.

How would you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

[Christian Potzinger]

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening
However, Voldemort would have had control (via Prime Minister
Tony Blair) of Britian's nukes, and could have threatened to
use them against anyone who invaded Britain, thus forcing the
rest of the Muggle world to cancel their invasion plans.

Life doesn't work that simply, only it Books it does.

How would you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

I don't think every "invasion" would end in an Nuclear War.

[J.J. O'Shea]

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening
However, Voldemort would have had control (via Prime Minister
Tony Blair) of Britian's nukes, and could have threatened to
use them against anyone who invaded Britain, thus forcing the
rest of the Muggle world to cancel their invasion plans.

Life doesn't work that simply, only it Books it does.

How would you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

I don't think every "invasion" would end in an Nuclear War.

You haven't answered the question.

How do you invade a nuclear power without being nuked? You are _attacking
them_ with the _declared intent_ of doing a little 'regime change'; the
regime you're going to change is both Demonstrably Evil(tm) _and_ has control
of multiple nukes. How do you plan on preventing them from using said nukes?
By using harsh language?

[Christian Potzinger]

J.J. O'Shea maltreated the Keyboard with following:

[...snip...]

Post by J.J. O'Shea

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening
How would you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

I don't think every "invasion" would end in an Nuclear War.

You haven't answered the question.

Yes, i have. You just can't see it ;)

Post by J.J. O'Shea
How do you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?
You are _attacking them_ with the _declared intent_ of
doing a little 'regime change'; the regime you're going
to change is both Demonstrably Evil(tm) _and_ has control
of multiple nukes. How do you plan on preventing them from
using said nukes?

If i knew the "Agressor" had more Nukes (and _know_ how do
use them) and had already used them... i would think twice
about using them.

Post by J.J. O'Shea
By using harsh language?

...and clapping HIM on the Finger ;)

[J.J. O'Shea]

Post by Christian Potzinger
[...snip...]

Post by J.J. O'Shea

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening
How would you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

I don't think every "invasion" would end in an Nuclear War.

You haven't answered the question.

Yes, i have. You just can't see it ;)

I see where you side-stepped it.

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by J.J. O'Shea
How do you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?
You are _attacking them_ with the _declared intent_ of
doing a little 'regime change'; the regime you're going
to change is both Demonstrably Evil(tm) _and_ has control
of multiple nukes. How do you plan on preventing them from
using said nukes?

If i knew the "Agressor" had more Nukes (and _know_ how do
use them) and had already used them... i would think twice
about using them.

As presented, V would go down fighting, trying to take the max with him.
Deterrence is of limited effect on a kamikaze.

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by J.J. O'Shea
By using harsh language?

...and clapping HIM on the Finger ;)

You still haven't answered the question. You're coming to kill him, 'cause
that, frankly, is the only way you're going to get him out of power. He's
dead if you win... so threatening to kill him if he uses nukes ain't gonna do
much. How are you going to prevent him from using nukes?

[Christian Potzinger]

J.J. O'Shea maltreated the Keyboard with following:

[...snip...]

Post by J.J. O'Shea
As presented, V would go down fighting, trying to
take the max with him. Deterrence is of limited
effect on a kamikaze.

No one "want" to die, not even V. That he is vulnerable
to deterrence is shown by the Action he took, to prevent
Harry becoming his Demise. And invading England doesn't
ultimately mean his Death. He could hide and try it
again. This seems "to me" a likely attitude.

Post by J.J. O'Shea
You still haven't answered the question. You're coming
to kill him, 'cause that, frankly, is the only way you're
going to get him out of power. He's dead if you win...

No, his Death isn't the only Possibility.

Post by J.J. O'Shea
so threatening to kill him if he uses nukes ain't gonna do
much. How are you going to prevent him from using nukes?

Using a Nuke would "most certainly" end his Career as Evil Lord [tm]

I do see there is a great Possibility that he would
use a Nuke but i don't see that it is inevitable.

[J.J. O'Shea]

Post by Christian Potzinger
[...snip...]

Post by J.J. O'Shea
As presented, V would go down fighting, trying to
take the max with him. Deterrence is of limited
effect on a kamikaze.

No one "want" to die, not even V.

Bullshit. There are swarms of suicide bombers roaming the Middle East right
now. In WWII, there were _thousands_ of kamikazes who went off to die in an
organised fashion, and many thousands more, not all or even most of 'em
Japanese, who did the same thing in a disorganised fashion.

Post by Christian Potzinger
That he is vulnerable
to deterrence is shown by the Action he took, to prevent
Harry becoming his Demise. And invading England doesn't
ultimately mean his Death. He could hide and try it
again. This seems "to me" a likely attitude.

You have failed to show why your opinion should be considered. Indeed, you
have shown that your opinion has very little connection with logic.

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by J.J. O'Shea
You still haven't answered the question. You're coming
to kill him, 'cause that, frankly, is the only way you're
going to get him out of power. He's dead if you win...

No, his Death isn't the only Possibility.

Bullshit. There's no way that any invading force would _dare_ to leave him
alive.

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by J.J. O'Shea
so threatening to kill him if he uses nukes ain't gonna do
much. How are you going to prevent him from using nukes?

Using a Nuke would "most certainly" end his Career as Evil Lord [tm]

That's over anyway. Go down fighting.

Post by Christian Potzinger
I do see there is a great Possibility that he would
use a Nuke but i don't see that it is inevitable.

Your opinion seems flawed, not least given the way you dump Capital Letters
All Over The Place WIthout Rhyme Or Reason.

[Christian Potzinger]

J.J. O'Shea maltreated the Keyboard with following:

[...snipp...]

Post by J.J. O'Shea

Post by Christian Potzinger
No one "want" to die, not even V.

Bullshit. There are swarms of suicide bombers roaming the
Middle East right now. In WWII, there were _thousands_ of
kamikazes who went off to die in an organised fashion, and
many thousands more, not all or even most of 'em Japanese,
who did the same thing in a disorganised fashion.

Why are you telling me this? I don't think V has the same
Attitude as an Kamikaze. So this Comparison is lame.

Post by J.J. O'Shea

Post by Christian Potzinger
That he is vulnerable to deterrence is shown by the Action
he took, to prevent Harry becoming his Demise. And invading
England doesn't ultimately mean his Death. He could hide and
try it again. This seems "to me" a likely attitude.

You have failed to show why your opinion should be considered.
Indeed, you have shown that your opinion has very little connection
with logic.

Only saying you have failed doesn't make them so. Where do
you see that my Opinion has little Connection to logic?

Post by J.J. O'Shea

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by J.J. O'Shea
You still haven't answered the question. You're coming
to kill him, 'cause that, frankly, is the only way you're
going to get him out of power. He's dead if you win...

No, his Death isn't the only Possibility.

Bullshit. There's no way that any invading
force would _dare_ to leave him alive.

He wouldn't be the first Terrorist who would not
be dared to be alive and still lives. V himself
did retreat in OotP when he was confrontet with
a Force he possible couldn't withstand (DD and
a Bunch of Aurors). I never saw him as someone
who would rather die fighting than retire and
come back. YMMV.

Post by J.J. O'Shea
Your opinion seems flawed, not least given the way
you dump Capital Letters All Over The Place WIthout
Rhyme Or Reason.

You are more right, bacause you have a far better
spelling than me? I have an Excuse, i didn't learn
english in School (to old for that). I only learned
it by watching Movies. So yes, my english is poor
indeed, but what does that have to do with it.

[J.J. O'Shea]

Post by Christian Potzinger
[...snipp...]

Post by J.J. O'Shea

Post by Christian Potzinger
No one "want" to die, not even V.

Bullshit. There are swarms of suicide bombers roaming the
Middle East right now. In WWII, there were _thousands_ of
kamikazes who went off to die in an organised fashion, and
many thousands more, not all or even most of 'em Japanese,
who did the same thing in a disorganised fashion.

Why are you telling me this? I don't think V has the same
Attitude as an Kamikaze. So this Comparison is lame.

You don't think. Period.

[Christian Potzinger]

J.J. O'Shea maltreated the Keyboard with following:

[...snip...]

Post by J.J. O'Shea

Post by Christian Potzinger
Why are you telling me this? I don't think V has the same
Attitude as an Kamikaze. So this Comparison is lame.

You don't think. Period.

I didn't even notice it till you said it. Thank you
very much for enlighten me. But we are lucky, you're
thinking so much.

...V isn't afraid of Death, LOL...

[William George Ferguson]

Post by J.J. O'Shea

Post by Christian Potzinger
[...snip...]

Post by J.J. O'Shea
As presented, V would go down fighting, trying to
take the max with him. Deterrence is of limited
effect on a kamikaze.

No one "want" to die, not even V.

Bullshit. There are swarms of suicide bombers roaming the Middle East right
now. In WWII, there were _thousands_ of kamikazes who went off to die in an
organised fashion, and many thousands more, not all or even most of 'em
Japanese, who did the same thing in a disorganised fashion.

None of them were Voldemort.

Post by J.J. O'Shea

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by J.J. O'Shea
You still haven't answered the question. You're coming
to kill him, 'cause that, frankly, is the only way you're
going to get him out of power. He's dead if you win...

No, his Death isn't the only Possibility.

Bullshit. There's no way that any invading force would _dare_ to leave him
alive.

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by J.J. O'Shea
so threatening to kill him if he uses nukes ain't gonna do
much. How are you going to prevent him from using nukes?

Using a Nuke would "most certainly" end his Career as Evil Lord [tm]

That's over anyway. Go down fighting.

We are talking about Voldemort. His single greatest fear, which is
explicitly stated in the books as driving all his actions, is his fear of
death. Everything he does in the books is to avoid dying. He would launch
nuclear weapons only if he was absolutely dead certain that he was going to
survive, otherwise, he would give up power and run. Power can be regained,
but death is death.

Also, Voldemort (who is half-muggle, and was raised as a muggle) cannot
admit that a muggle weapon is better than magic without attacking the core
of his belief in his own superiority. He would not rely on a muggle
weapon, no matter how powerful.

[No 33 Secretary]

Post by William George Ferguson

Post by J.J. O'Shea

Post by Christian Potzinger
[...snip...]

Post by J.J. O'Shea
As presented, V would go down fighting, trying to
take the max with him. Deterrence is of limited
effect on a kamikaze.

No one "want" to die, not even V.

Bullshit. There are swarms of suicide bombers roaming the Middle
East right now. In WWII, there were _thousands_ of kamikazes who
went off to die in an organised fashion, and many thousands
more, not all or even most of 'em Japanese, who did the same
thing in a disorganised fashion.

None of them were Voldemort.

In point of fact, anyone who has read the books would have to be a
retard to argue that Voldemort wants to die, ever, under any
circumstances. His not wanting to die is _the entire point_ of the
character.

Post by William George Ferguson

Post by J.J. O'Shea

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by J.J. O'Shea
You still haven't answered the question. You're coming
to kill him, 'cause that, frankly, is the only way you're
going to get him out of power. He's dead if you win...

No, his Death isn't the only Possibility.

Bullshit. There's no way that any invading force would _dare_ to
leave him alive.

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by J.J. O'Shea
so threatening to kill him if he uses nukes ain't gonna do
much. How are you going to prevent him from using nukes?

Using a Nuke would "most certainly" end his Career as Evil
Lord [tm]

That's over anyway. Go down fighting.

We are talking about Voldemort. His single greatest fear, which
is explicitly stated in the books as driving all his actions, is
his fear of death. Everything he does in the books is to avoid
dying. He would launch nuclear weapons only if he was
absolutely dead certain that he was going to survive, otherwise,
he would give up power and run. Power can be regained, but
death is death.
Also, Voldemort (who is half-muggle, and was raised as a muggle)
cannot admit that a muggle weapon is better than magic without
attacking the core of his belief in his own superiority. He
would not rely on a muggle weapon, no matter how powerful.

And, in a Harry Potter book, he'd be correct. I'm sure there's a
simple charm that would defuse any nuke from a long distance.

[Damien Sullivan]

Post by No 33 Secretary

Post by William George Ferguson
dying. He would launch nuclear weapons only if he was
absolutely dead certain that he was going to survive, otherwise,
he would give up power and run. Power can be regained, but
death is death.

That's what Horcruces are for.

Post by No 33 Secretary

Post by William George Ferguson
cannot admit that a muggle weapon is better than magic without
attacking the core of his belief in his own superiority. He
would not rely on a muggle weapon, no matter how powerful.

And, in a Harry Potter book, he'd be correct. I'm sure there's a
simple charm that would defuse any nuke from a long distance.

Wouldn't that make using them more likely? Especially as a first strike
to cull the worldwide Muggles? Other wizards wouldn't have time to act,
while he could protect Britain. Or little wizardy parts of Britain.

-xx- Damien X-)

[Terry Austin]

Post by Damien Sullivan

Post by No 33 Secretary

Post by William George Ferguson
dying. He would launch nuclear weapons only if he was
absolutely dead certain that he was going to survive, otherwise,
he would give up power and run. Power can be regained, but
death is death.

That's what Horcruces are for.

Post by No 33 Secretary

Post by William George Ferguson
cannot admit that a muggle weapon is better than magic without
attacking the core of his belief in his own superiority. He
would not rely on a muggle weapon, no matter how powerful.

And, in a Harry Potter book, he'd be correct. I'm sure there's a
simple charm that would defuse any nuke from a long distance.

Wouldn't that make using them more likely?

Why? It's far easier to use magic. And far more personal, when it comes to
torturing muggles.

[J.J. O'Shea]

Post by William George Ferguson

Post by J.J. O'Shea

Post by Christian Potzinger
[...snip...]

Post by J.J. O'Shea
As presented, V would go down fighting, trying to
take the max with him. Deterrence is of limited
effect on a kamikaze.

No one "want" to die, not even V.

Bullshit. There are swarms of suicide bombers roaming the Middle East right
now. In WWII, there were _thousands_ of kamikazes who went off to die in an
organised fashion, and many thousands more, not all or even most of 'em
Japanese, who did the same thing in a disorganised fashion.

None of them were Voldemort.

Point.

Post by William George Ferguson

Post by J.J. O'Shea

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by J.J. O'Shea
You still haven't answered the question. You're coming
to kill him, 'cause that, frankly, is the only way you're
going to get him out of power. He's dead if you win...

No, his Death isn't the only Possibility.

Bullshit. There's no way that any invading force would _dare_ to leave him
alive.

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by J.J. O'Shea
so threatening to kill him if he uses nukes ain't gonna do
much. How are you going to prevent him from using nukes?

Using a Nuke would "most certainly" end his Career as Evil Lord [tm]

That's over anyway. Go down fighting.

We are talking about Voldemort. His single greatest fear, which is
explicitly stated in the books as driving all his actions, is his fear of
death.

And they're coming to kill him. He's gonna be kinda desperate.

Post by William George Ferguson
Everything he does in the books is to avoid dying. He would launch
nuclear weapons only if he was absolutely dead certain that he was going to
survive, otherwise, he would give up power and run. Power can be regained,
but death is death.
Also, Voldemort (who is half-muggle, and was raised as a muggle) cannot
admit that a muggle weapon is better than magic without attacking the core
of his belief in his own superiority. He would not rely on a muggle
weapon, no matter how powerful.

Now _that_ is a relevant point.

[Howard Brazee]

On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:38:13 -0700, William George Ferguson

Post by William George Ferguson
Also, Voldemort (who is half-muggle, and was raised as a muggle) cannot
admit that a muggle weapon is better than magic without attacking the core
of his belief in his own superiority. He would not rely on a muggle
weapon, no matter how powerful

People can use animals as weapons without attacking the core of our
belief in our own superiority.

[No 33 Secretary]

Post by Howard Brazee
On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:38:13 -0700, William George Ferguson

Post by William George Ferguson
Also, Voldemort (who is half-muggle, and was raised as a muggle)
cannot admit that a muggle weapon is better than magic without
attacking the core of his belief in his own superiority. He
would not rely on a muggle weapon, no matter how powerful

People can use animals as weapons without attacking the core of
our belief in our own superiority.

But in Potterverse, when he assumed that no muggle weapon could
possibly be as good as his magic, he'd be correct. Core beliefs are
irrelevant, by any objective measure, he'd be correct.

[William George Ferguson]

On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 21:41:22 -0000, No 33 Secretary

Post by No 33 Secretary

Post by Howard Brazee
On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:38:13 -0700, William George Ferguson

Post by William George Ferguson
Also, Voldemort (who is half-muggle, and was raised as a muggle)
cannot admit that a muggle weapon is better than magic without
attacking the core of his belief in his own superiority. He
would not rely on a muggle weapon, no matter how powerful

People can use animals as weapons without attacking the core of
our belief in our own superiority.

But in Potterverse, when he assumed that no muggle weapon could
possibly be as good as his magic, he'd be correct. Core beliefs are
irrelevant, by any objective measure, he'd be correct.

Not true, based on what is actually in the books. While the wizards won't
admit it to themselves, it's very clear in the references to wizarding
history that the reason the wizards are in hiding from the muggles is that
the muggles were in the process of wiping out the wizards about 700 to 800
years ago. The muggles are a lot better and more efficient at killing now
than the were then, and there's no particular evidence that the wizards
have improved by an equal or greater amount. In the History of Hogwarts,
it is mentioned, without dwelling on it, that the four founders set up
Hogwarts Castle (and Hogsmeade) with muggle-confusion spells protecting
them, as a safe haven from muggle persecution.

The wizards, of course, to protect their self-image, clothed the rules
leading to the hiding in terms of protecting the muggles, but it's the
wizards that are in hiding, not the muggles. Have you ever seen anything
in the books that indicate that wizards, as a group, are particularly
caring, and devoted to working to protect other species?

[Tim Bruening]

Post by J.J. O'Shea

Post by Christian Potzinger
[...snip...]

Post by J.J. O'Shea

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening
How would you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

I don't think every "invasion" would end in an Nuclear War.

You haven't answered the question.

Yes, i have. You just can't see it ;)

I see where you side-stepped it.

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by J.J. O'Shea
How do you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?
You are _attacking them_ with the _declared intent_ of
doing a little 'regime change'; the regime you're going
to change is both Demonstrably Evil(tm) _and_ has control
of multiple nukes. How do you plan on preventing them from
using said nukes?

If i knew the "Agressor" had more Nukes (and _know_ how do
use them) and had already used them... i would think twice
about using them.

As presented, V would go down fighting, trying to take the max with him.
Deterrence is of limited effect on a kamikaze.

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by J.J. O'Shea
By using harsh language?

...and clapping HIM on the Finger ;)

You still haven't answered the question. You're coming to kill him, 'cause
that, frankly, is the only way you're going to get him out of power. He's
dead if you win... so threatening to kill him if he uses nukes ain't gonna do
much. How are you going to prevent him from using nukes?

Also, Voldemort could set up a bomb shelter to protect him and his followers from
retaliatory nukes, then come out to rule the world.

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Christian Potzinger
[...snip...]

Post by J.J. O'Shea

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening
How would you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

I don't think every "invasion" would end in an Nuclear War.

You haven't answered the question.

Yes, i have. You just can't see it ;)

Post by J.J. O'Shea
How do you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?
You are _attacking them_ with the _declared intent_ of
doing a little 'regime change'; the regime you're going
to change is both Demonstrably Evil(tm) _and_ has control
of multiple nukes. How do you plan on preventing them from
using said nukes?

If i knew the "Agressor" had more Nukes (and _know_ how do
use them) and had already used them... i would think twice
about using them.

But if you will lose without using nukes, wouldn't you consider using
them anyway? (Especially if you are Lord Voldemort).

[Christian Potzinger]

Tim Bruening maltreated the Keyboard with following:

[...snip...]

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by J.J. O'Shea
How do you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?
You are _attacking them_ with the _declared intent_ of
doing a little 'regime change'; the regime you're going
to change is both Demonstrably Evil(tm) _and_ has control
of multiple nukes. How do you plan on preventing them from
using said nukes?

If i knew the "Agressor" had more Nukes (and _know_ how do
use them) and had already used them... i would think twice
about using them.

But if you will lose without using nukes, wouldn't you consider
using them anyway? (Especially if you are Lord Voldemort).

No, especially with Voldemort. As he has shown, he would rather
retreat (and come back later) than going to die in a suicidal
Action. Besides, if i were V, i would do a lot of Things different
as he has done ;) As always, that's just my Opinion.

[Will in New Haven]

Post by J.J. O'Shea

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening
However, Voldemort would have had control (via Prime Minister
Tony Blair) of Britian's nukes, and could have threatened to
use them against anyone who invaded Britain, thus forcing the
rest of the Muggle world to cancel their invasion plans.

Life doesn't work that simply, only it Books it does.

How would you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

I don't think every "invasion" would end in an Nuclear War.

You haven't answered the question.
How do you invade a nuclear power without being nuked? You are _attacking
them_ with the _declared intent_ of doing a little 'regime change'; the
regime you're going to change is both Demonstrably Evil(tm) _and_ has control
of multiple nukes. How do you plan on preventing them from using said nukes?
By using harsh language?
--
email to oshea dot j dot j at gmail dot com.

By using the power of randomly applied quotation marks. How can you
stand reading that garbage enough to get into an argument with "him?"

Will in New Haven

--

[Christian Potzinger]

Post by Will in New Haven
By using the power of randomly applied quotation marks.
How can you stand reading that garbage enough to get into
an argument with "him?"

"Yawn", "is" "that" "your" "best"? scnr.

[David DeLaney]

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Will in New Haven
By using the power of randomly applied quotation marks.
How can you stand reading that garbage enough to get into
an argument with "him?"

"Yawn", "is" "that" "your" "best"? scnr.

Your words are your face, here on Usenet, and you're applying way too much
emo mascara to yours to make others think you're worth interacting with.
Learn to write, as well as to think, and get back to us.

Dave "just checking: are you both angry and sad?" DeLaney

[Christian Potzinger]

David DeLaney maltreated the Keyboard with following:

[...snip...]

Post by David DeLaney

Post by Christian Potzinger
"Yawn", "is" "that" "your" "best"? scnr.

Your words are your face, here on Usenet, and you're applying
way too much emo mascara to yours to make others think you're
worth interacting with. Learn to write, as well as to think,
and get back to us.

Don't worry about me, i'm fine the Way i am.

Post by David DeLaney
Dave "just checking: are you both angry and sad?" DeLaney

No, i consider myself an even-tempered Man.

[David Johnston]

On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 07:57:34 -0400, J.J. O'Shea

Post by J.J. O'Shea

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening
However, Voldemort would have had control (via Prime Minister
Tony Blair) of Britian's nukes, and could have threatened to
use them against anyone who invaded Britain, thus forcing the
rest of the Muggle world to cancel their invasion plans.

Life doesn't work that simply, only it Books it does.

How would you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

I don't think every "invasion" would end in an Nuclear War.

You haven't answered the question.
How do you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

Be outside of the target's delivery range. Use a first strike to take
out their nuclear capability. Intimidate them with your superior
arsenal.

[J.J. O'Shea]

Post by David Johnston
On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 07:57:34 -0400, J.J. O'Shea

Post by J.J. O'Shea

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening
However, Voldemort would have had control (via Prime Minister
Tony Blair) of Britian's nukes, and could have threatened to
use them against anyone who invaded Britain, thus forcing the
rest of the Muggle world to cancel their invasion plans.

Life doesn't work that simply, only it Books it does.

How would you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

I don't think every "invasion" would end in an Nuclear War.

You haven't answered the question.
How do you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

Be outside of the target's delivery range. Use a first strike to take
out their nuclear capability. Intimidate them with your superior
arsenal.

Won't work real well if the nukes have been dispersed... and if you don't
know the delivery method.

[No 33 Secretary]

Post by J.J. O'Shea

Post by David Johnston
On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 07:57:34 -0400, J.J. O'Shea

Post by J.J. O'Shea

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening
However, Voldemort would have had control (via Prime
Minister Tony Blair) of Britian's nukes, and could have
threatened to use them against anyone who invaded Britain,
thus forcing the rest of the Muggle world to cancel their
invasion plans.

Life doesn't work that simply, only it Books it does.

How would you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

I don't think every "invasion" would end in an Nuclear War.

You haven't answered the question.
How do you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

Be outside of the target's delivery range. Use a first strike
to take out their nuclear capability. Intimidate them with
your superior arsenal.

Won't work real well if the nukes have been dispersed... and if
you don't know the delivery method.

You might try looking at how nukes are actually designed and
controlled. The PM may have launch codes, but he literally cannot
launch them alone. In fact, if it's like the US, he can't launch
them alone even if he had both launch codes (the Soviets use three)
and were standing in the missile silo with both keys armed. They're
designed so that there _must_ be at least two people involved, and
in reality, at least four to get both launch codes and both keys.

It's never as simple as it is in the books. For damned good reason.
In the real world, people who design military weapons systems
aren't drooling retards or plot gimmicks.

[J.J. O'Shea]

Post by No 33 Secretary

Post by J.J. O'Shea

Post by David Johnston
On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 07:57:34 -0400, J.J. O'Shea

Post by J.J. O'Shea

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening
However, Voldemort would have had control (via Prime
Minister Tony Blair) of Britian's nukes, and could have
threatened to use them against anyone who invaded Britain,
thus forcing the rest of the Muggle world to cancel their
invasion plans.

Life doesn't work that simply, only it Books it does.

How would you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

I don't think every "invasion" would end in an Nuclear War.

You haven't answered the question.
How do you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

Be outside of the target's delivery range. Use a first strike
to take out their nuclear capability. Intimidate them with
your superior arsenal.

Won't work real well if the nukes have been dispersed... and if
you don't know the delivery method.

You might try looking at how nukes are actually designed and
controlled. The PM may have launch codes, but he literally cannot
launch them alone. In fact, if it's like the US, he can't launch
them alone even if he had both launch codes (the Soviets use three)
and were standing in the missile silo with both keys armed. They're
designed so that there _must_ be at least two people involved, and
in reality, at least four to get both launch codes and both keys.
It's never as simple as it is in the books. For damned good reason.
In the real world, people who design military weapons systems
aren't drooling retards or plot gimmicks.

V can have others do his bidding. He doesn't need to be physically present.

[No 33 Secretary]

Post by J.J. O'Shea

Post by No 33 Secretary

Post by J.J. O'Shea

Post by David Johnston
On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 07:57:34 -0400, J.J. O'Shea

Post by J.J. O'Shea

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening
However, Voldemort would have had control (via Prime
Minister Tony Blair) of Britian's nukes, and could have
threatened to use them against anyone who invaded
Britain, thus forcing the rest of the Muggle world to
cancel their invasion plans.

Life doesn't work that simply, only it Books it does.

How would you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

I don't think every "invasion" would end in an Nuclear War.

You haven't answered the question.
How do you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

Be outside of the target's delivery range. Use a first
strike to take out their nuclear capability. Intimidate them
with your superior arsenal.

Won't work real well if the nukes have been dispersed... and
if you don't know the delivery method.

You might try looking at how nukes are actually designed and
controlled. The PM may have launch codes, but he literally
cannot launch them alone. In fact, if it's like the US, he
can't launch them alone even if he had both launch codes (the
Soviets use three) and were standing in the missile silo with
both keys armed. They're designed so that there _must_ be at
least two people involved, and in reality, at least four to get
both launch codes and both keys.
It's never as simple as it is in the books. For damned good
reason. In the real world, people who design military weapons
systems aren't drooling retards or plot gimmicks.

V can have others do his bidding. He doesn't need to be
physically present.

He does need to be physically present with the person to *force*
them to do something they don't want to. Research on people who sit
in missile silos suggests they're really not all that cooperative
about launching nukes against targets that were friendly just a few
days ago. Or even against targets they're told are currently
launching nukes at them.

But trying to inejct reality in to a Harry Potter books is just
stupid anyway.

[J.J. O'Shea]

Post by No 33 Secretary

Post by J.J. O'Shea

Post by No 33 Secretary

Post by J.J. O'Shea

Post by David Johnston
On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 07:57:34 -0400, J.J. O'Shea

Post by J.J. O'Shea

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening
However, Voldemort would have had control (via Prime
Minister Tony Blair) of Britian's nukes, and could have
threatened to use them against anyone who invaded
Britain, thus forcing the rest of the Muggle world to
cancel their invasion plans.

Life doesn't work that simply, only it Books it does.

How would you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

I don't think every "invasion" would end in an Nuclear War.

You haven't answered the question.
How do you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

Be outside of the target's delivery range. Use a first
strike to take out their nuclear capability. Intimidate them
with your superior arsenal.

Won't work real well if the nukes have been dispersed... and
if you don't know the delivery method.

You might try looking at how nukes are actually designed and
controlled. The PM may have launch codes, but he literally
cannot launch them alone. In fact, if it's like the US, he
can't launch them alone even if he had both launch codes (the
Soviets use three) and were standing in the missile silo with
both keys armed. They're designed so that there _must_ be at
least two people involved, and in reality, at least four to get
both launch codes and both keys.
It's never as simple as it is in the books. For damned good
reason. In the real world, people who design military weapons
systems aren't drooling retards or plot gimmicks.

V can have others do his bidding. He doesn't need to be
physically present.

He does need to be physically present with the person to *force*
them to do something they don't want to. Research on people who sit
in missile silos suggests they're really not all that cooperative
about launching nukes against targets that were friendly just a few
days ago. Or even against targets they're told are currently
launching nukes at them.
But trying to inejct reality in to a Harry Potter books is just
stupid anyway.

There is that...

[David Johnston]

On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 13:17:56 -0400, J.J. O'Shea

Post by J.J. O'Shea

Post by David Johnston
On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 07:57:34 -0400, J.J. O'Shea

Post by J.J. O'Shea

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening
However, Voldemort would have had control (via Prime Minister
Tony Blair) of Britian's nukes, and could have threatened to
use them against anyone who invaded Britain, thus forcing the
rest of the Muggle world to cancel their invasion plans.

Life doesn't work that simply, only it Books it does.

How would you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

I don't think every "invasion" would end in an Nuclear War.

You haven't answered the question.
How do you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

Be outside of the target's delivery range. Use a first strike to take
out their nuclear capability. Intimidate them with your superior
arsenal.

Won't work real well if the nukes have been dispersed... and if you don't
know the delivery method.

Foreigners do know the delivery methods used by the British. That
being said, given Voldemort's approach, it's unlikely that we would be
aware of anything except that British society was disintigrating.

[Toon]

On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 07:57:34 -0400, J.J. O'Shea

Post by J.J. O'Shea
How do you invade a nuclear power without being nuked? You are _attacking
them_ with the _declared intent_ of doing a little 'regime change'; the
regime you're going to change is both Demonstrably Evil(tm) _and_ has control
of multiple nukes. How do you plan on preventing them from using said nukes?
By using harsh language?

Use an Electyromagnetic Pulse first. Knock out launching mechanism,
guiding computers, etc.

[Derek Lyons]

Post by J.J. O'Shea
How do you invade a nuclear power without being nuked? You are _attacking
them_ with the _declared intent_ of doing a little 'regime change'; the
regime you're going to change is both Demonstrably Evil(tm) _and_ has control
of multiple nukes. How do you plan on preventing them from using said nukes?
By using harsh language?

With the UK you actually have a pretty fair chance of neutralizing
their nukes, mostly because they haven't any ICBM's.

A well prosecuted ASW campaign will get the SSBN's. For air launched
nukes, they have very few strategic bombers left and those that they
have are about as stealthy as a Saturn V on takeoff. They've got a
fair number of tactical bombers and tactical weapons, but a properly
handled air defense and a campaign against their airfields will put
paid to them as well.

Theres is also a bit of carrier launched stuff... But as much as
admire my fellow seaman of the RN, they are going to die if the USN
decides that those carriers need to be taken out.

None of this is 100%, but you stand a better than fair chance of
whittling the risk down to something acceptable.

(This is why all the varied and sundry tinpot and bannana republic
types attempting to obtain nuclear weapons almost always attempt to
obtain ICBM's as well - and why the US is working on ABM systems.)

D.

[Ron Hunter]

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening
However, Voldemort would have had control (via Prime Minister
Tony Blair) of Britian's nukes, and could have threatened to
use them against anyone who invaded Britain, thus forcing the
rest of the Muggle world to cancel their invasion plans.

Life doesn't work that simply, only it Books it does.

How would you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

I don't think every "invasion" would end in an Nuclear War.

For sure, a country can be invaded without a war. Right now, the US
has, at LEAST 12 million invaders in the country, and we give them free
medical care, driver's licenses, and even voting rights! What good are
nukes against people who have dispersed themselves throughout your
country? Worse, we have 300,000 of these people in our federal prisons,
where we pay their food, shelter, clothing, and medical care.
So, if you are asking that question, ask MEXICO.

[Sue H]

Post by Ron Hunter

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening
However, Voldemort would have had control (via Prime Minister
Tony Blair) of Britian's nukes, and could have threatened to
use them against anyone who invaded Britain, thus forcing the
rest of the Muggle world to cancel their invasion plans.

Life doesn't work that simply, only it Books it does.

How would you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

I don't think every "invasion" would end in an Nuclear War.

For sure, a country can be invaded without a war. Right now, the US
has, at LEAST 12 million invaders in the country, and we give them free
medical care, driver's licenses, and even voting rights! What good are
nukes against people who have dispersed themselves throughout your
country? Worse, we have 300,000 of these people in our federal prisons,
where we pay their food, shelter, clothing, and medical care.
So, if you are asking that question, ask MEXICO.

here here.

[Gene Ward Smith]

Post by Ron Hunter
For sure, a country can be invaded without a war. Right now, the US
has, at LEAST 12 million invaders in the country, and we give them free
medical care, driver's licenses, and even voting rights!

And in return, the dirty dogs viciously mow our lawns, clean our houses,
and babysit our children. And that's just the visible tip of the iceverg.

[Sue H]

On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 18:02:01 GMT, Gene Ward Smith

Post by Gene Ward Smith

Post by Ron Hunter
For sure, a country can be invaded without a war. Right now, the US
has, at LEAST 12 million invaders in the country, and we give them free
medical care, driver's licenses, and even voting rights!

And in return, the dirty dogs viciously mow our lawns, clean our houses,
and babysit our children. And that's just the visible tip of the iceverg.

They may be doing that somewhere, but I've never been the lucky
beneficiary!

[Toon]

Post by Ron Hunter
For sure, a country can be invaded without a war. Right now, the US
has, at LEAST 12 million invaders in the country, and we give them free
medical care, driver's licenses,

Yet not all American citizens don't have these.

[Sue H]

Post by Toon

Post by Ron Hunter
For sure, a country can be invaded without a war. Right now, the US
has, at LEAST 12 million invaders in the country, and we give them free
medical care, driver's licenses,

Yet not all American citizens don't have these.

Double negative. did you mean to leave out the "don't"?

[The Other Kim]

Post by Ron Hunter
For sure, a country can be invaded without a war. Right now, the US
has, at LEAST 12 million invaders in the country, and we give them
free medical care, driver's licenses, and even voting rights!

Where is anyone here illegally allowed to vote? They're not. Neither
are they allowed to have driver's licenses in some states. As for
medical care, they can only get emergency room care without paying, and
that goes for anyone here in this country.

Besides, if the government actually wanted to do something about this
they would, but then who would mow their lawns, clean their houses,
raise their kids, pick their vegetables, etc., at the wages they're
willing to pay, which is often far less than the paltry "minimum" wage?

Try again.

The Other Kim
kimagreenfieldatyahoodotcom

[Toon]

Post by The Other Kim

Post by Ron Hunter
For sure, a country can be invaded without a war. Right now, the US
has, at LEAST 12 million invaders in the country, and we give them
free medical care, driver's licenses, and even voting rights!

Where is anyone here illegally allowed to vote? They're not. Neither
are they allowed to have driver's licenses in some states. As for
medical care, they can only get emergency room care without paying, and
that goes for anyone here in this country.
Besides, if the government actually wanted to do something about this
they would, but then who would mow their lawns, clean their houses,
raise their kids, pick their vegetables, etc., at the wages they're
willing to pay, which is often far less than the paltry "minimum" wage?
Try again.
The Other Kim
kimagreenfieldatyahoodotcom

Well, they can perfect time travel and hope people from the future
will arrive to do the work for mere pennies a day, then open up a bank
account to gain interest off of.

[John Schilling]

Post by The Other Kim

Post by Ron Hunter
For sure, a country can be invaded without a war. Right now, the US
has, at LEAST 12 million invaders in the country, and we give them
free medical care, driver's licenses, and even voting rights!

Where is anyone here illegally allowed to vote? They're not.

I belive that in Cambridge, Massachussets, and possibly Amherst, they
are. Local elections only. Probably other incorporated towns have
passed similar regulations, to little or no practical effect.

[Stephen Graham]

Post by John Schilling

Post by The Other Kim

Post by Ron Hunter
For sure, a country can be invaded without a war. Right now, the US
has, at LEAST 12 million invaders in the country, and we give them
free medical care, driver's licenses, and even voting rights!

Where is anyone here illegally allowed to vote? They're not.

I belive that in Cambridge, Massachussets, and possibly Amherst, they
are. Local elections only. Probably other incorporated towns have
passed similar regulations, to little or no practical effect.

Incidentally, this was more common in the 18th and 19th centuries,
falling out of favor during the big immigration boom in the late 19th
century.

[Toon]

On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 15:57:14 -0700, John Schilling

Post by John Schilling

Post by The Other Kim

Post by Ron Hunter
For sure, a country can be invaded without a war. Right now, the US
has, at LEAST 12 million invaders in the country, and we give them
free medical care, driver's licenses, and even voting rights!

Where is anyone here illegally allowed to vote? They're not.

I belive that in Cambridge, Massachussets, and possibly Amherst, they
are. Local elections only. Probably other incorporated towns have
passed similar regulations, to little or no practical effect.

One US town allowed the dead to vote, provided they had proper proof
they were dead.

Ah headlines.

[Ron Hunter]

Post by Toon
On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 15:57:14 -0700, John Schilling

Post by John Schilling

Post by The Other Kim

Post by Ron Hunter
For sure, a country can be invaded without a war. Right now, the US
has, at LEAST 12 million invaders in the country, and we give them
free medical care, driver's licenses, and even voting rights!

Where is anyone here illegally allowed to vote? They're not.

I belive that in Cambridge, Massachussets, and possibly Amherst, they
are. Local elections only. Probably other incorporated towns have
passed similar regulations, to little or no practical effect.

One US town allowed the dead to vote, provided they had proper proof
they were dead.
Ah headlines.

Like 'dead men walking', dead men voting is an old, and time-honored
custom in most places. I sometimes wonder what the US population is
according to the SSA based on how many people are drawing SS benefits....
Dead men banking? Grin.

[Toon]

Post by Ron Hunter

Post by Toon
On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 15:57:14 -0700, John Schilling

Post by John Schilling

Post by The Other Kim

Post by Ron Hunter
For sure, a country can be invaded without a war. Right now, the US
has, at LEAST 12 million invaders in the country, and we give them
free medical care, driver's licenses, and even voting rights!

Where is anyone here illegally allowed to vote? They're not.

I belive that in Cambridge, Massachussets, and possibly Amherst, they
are. Local elections only. Probably other incorporated towns have
passed similar regulations, to little or no practical effect.

One US town allowed the dead to vote, provided they had proper proof
they were dead.
Ah headlines.

Like 'dead men walking', dead men voting is an old, and time-honored
custom in most places. I sometimes wonder what the US population is
according to the SSA based on how many people are drawing SS benefits....
Dead men banking? Grin.

Worse, rising and voting Republican.

[William George Ferguson]

Post by Toon

Post by Ron Hunter

Post by Toon
On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 15:57:14 -0700, John Schilling

Post by John Schilling

Post by The Other Kim

Post by Ron Hunter
For sure, a country can be invaded without a war. Right now, the US
has, at LEAST 12 million invaders in the country, and we give them
free medical care, driver's licenses, and even voting rights!

Where is anyone here illegally allowed to vote? They're not.

I belive that in Cambridge, Massachussets, and possibly Amherst, they
are. Local elections only. Probably other incorporated towns have
passed similar regulations, to little or no practical effect.

One US town allowed the dead to vote, provided they had proper proof
they were dead.
Ah headlines.

Like 'dead men walking', dead men voting is an old, and time-honored
custom in most places. I sometimes wonder what the US population is
according to the SSA based on how many people are drawing SS benefits....
Dead men banking? Grin.

Worse, rising and voting Republican.

In Chicago at least, the graveyards are famously Democrat.

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Ron Hunter

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening
However, Voldemort would have had control (via Prime Minister
Tony Blair) of Britian's nukes, and could have threatened to
use them against anyone who invaded Britain, thus forcing the
rest of the Muggle world to cancel their invasion plans.

Life doesn't work that simply, only it Books it does.

How would you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

I don't think every "invasion" would end in an Nuclear War.

For sure, a country can be invaded without a war. Right now, the US
has, at LEAST 12 million invaders in the country, and we give them free
medical care, driver's licenses, and even voting rights! What good are
nukes against people who have dispersed themselves throughout your
country? Worse, we have 300,000 of these people in our federal prisons,
where we pay their food, shelter, clothing, and medical care.
So, if you are asking that question, ask MEXICO.

But they are not trying to take over the U.S., merely live in the U.S.

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening
However, Voldemort would have had control (via Prime Minister
Tony Blair) of Britian's nukes, and could have threatened to
use them against anyone who invaded Britain, thus forcing the
rest of the Muggle world to cancel their invasion plans.

Life doesn't work that simply, only it Books it does.

How would you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

I don't think every "invasion" would end in an Nuclear War.

That doesn't answer my question.

[Christian Potzinger]

Tim Bruening maltreated the Keyboard with following:

[...snip...]

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening
How would you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

I don't think every "invasion" would end in an Nuclear War.

That doesn't answer my question.

I did answer that Question. In my Opinion V wouldn't do it,
if he's convinced it would mean his Death. You don't agree
with that Answer, that's ok. But that doesn't mean, i haven't
answered that Question.

[Howard Brazee]

On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 04:34:24 -0700, Tim Bruening

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening
How would you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

I don't think every "invasion" would end in an Nuclear War.

That doesn't answer my question.

I would invade slowly. My wife thinks the U.S. is being invaded
now.

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Howard Brazee
On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 04:34:24 -0700, Tim Bruening

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening
How would you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

I don't think every "invasion" would end in an Nuclear War.

That doesn't answer my question.

I would invade slowly. My wife thinks the U.S. is being invaded
now.

How do you win if you invade slowly?

[Sea Wasp]

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening
However, Voldemort would have had control (via Prime Minister
Tony Blair) of Britian's nukes, and could have threatened to
use them against anyone who invaded Britain, thus forcing the
rest of the Muggle world to cancel their invasion plans.

Life doesn't work that simply, only it Books it does.

How would you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

Even if Voldemort won in Britain, there would still be other wizards
around who could inert the nukes as they were fired, most likely.
Muggle tech isn't used by the wizards in great part because they view
it as unreliable; it can be shut down apparently by very simple spells.

[J.J. O'Shea]

Post by Sea Wasp

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening
However, Voldemort would have had control (via Prime Minister
Tony Blair) of Britian's nukes, and could have threatened to
use them against anyone who invaded Britain, thus forcing the
rest of the Muggle world to cancel their invasion plans.

Life doesn't work that simply, only it Books it does.

How would you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

Even if Voldemort won in Britain, there would still be other wizards
around who could inert the nukes as they were fired, most likely.

If they know where they are. Let's say that V stuck a nuke in a sack of
holding, like Hermoine's purse, and had someone take it to New York, and then
rented an office and put the sack into a desk drawer. Finding it inside the
sack is going to be... interesting. Turning it off when you don't even know
its there is going to be... interesting.

V being the kind of guy he is, it would be simple for him to get someone else
to go and open the sack and let it out. If the nuke was armed before going
inside, there's now a live nuke sitting in the middle of New York. V knows
where it is and when it's coming out. Odds are excellent that he can trip it
_before_ any other wizard can locate and damp it.

Repeat with other major cities. And, for tactical use, do the same kind of
thing with a sack left in the path of the advancing invasion force, and wait
for them to pass the place where the sack was left. As the hostile wizards
are probably paying a lot of attention to the invasion force and may even be
there physically, use two or three or more and let 'em all out at the same
time. All V needs is to trip _one_, the other guys have to damp 'em all.

There are _lots_ of ways to deliver nukes that don't involve missiles or
aircraft or even artillery.

Post by Sea Wasp
Muggle tech isn't used by the wizards in great part because they view
it as unreliable; it can be shut down apparently by very simple spells.

[David DeLaney]

Post by J.J. O'Shea
If they know where they are. Let's say that V stuck a nuke in a sack of
holding, like Hermoine's purse, and had someone take it to New York, and then
rented an office and put the sack into a desk drawer. Finding it inside the
sack is going to be... interesting. Turning it off when you don't even know
its there is going to be... interesting.
V being the kind of guy he is, it would be simple for him to get someone else
to go and open the sack and let it out. If the nuke was armed before going
inside, there's now a live nuke sitting in the middle of New York. V knows
where it is and when it's coming out. Odds are excellent that he can trip it
_before_ any other wizard can locate and damp it.
Repeat with other major cities. And, for tactical use, do the same kind of
thing with a sack left in the path of the advancing invasion force, and wait
for them to pass the place where the sack was left. As the hostile wizards
are probably paying a lot of attention to the invasion force and may even be
there physically, use two or three or more and let 'em all out at the same
time. All V needs is to trip _one_, the other guys have to damp 'em all.
There are _lots_ of ways to deliver nukes that don't involve missiles or
aircraft or even artillery.

ObOtherSF: One of the Spider Robinson Callahan books, don't remember which
one, has Nikola Tesla involved in thwarting a scheme much like this except
they were left in the sewers...

Dave

[Sea Wasp]

Post by J.J. O'Shea

Post by Sea Wasp

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening
However, Voldemort would have had control (via Prime Minister
Tony Blair) of Britian's nukes, and could have threatened to
use them against anyone who invaded Britain, thus forcing the
rest of the Muggle world to cancel their invasion plans.

Life doesn't work that simply, only it Books it does.

How would you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

Even if Voldemort won in Britain, there would still be other wizards
around who could inert the nukes as they were fired, most likely.

If they know where they are. Let's say that V stuck a nuke in a sack of
holding, like Hermoine's purse, and had someone take it to New York, and then
rented an office and put the sack into a desk drawer. Finding it inside the
sack is going to be... interesting. Turning it off when you don't even know
its there is going to be... interesting.

Oh, there's ways to use them. But if we want to go down THAT road,
there's much better ways to use magic.

The fact is that (A) Voldywart has UTTER contempt for Muggles. He
would not understand nuclear weapons and would never waste his time
learning about them. If he did use them, he would use them in the
crudest possible way. And (B) long-term tactics and strategy using the
resources that are to hand does NOT seem to be a strong point of
anyone in the Wizarding world.

[Howard Brazee]

On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 21:03:46 -0400, Sea Wasp

Post by Sea Wasp
The fact is that (A) Voldywart has UTTER contempt for Muggles. He
would not understand nuclear weapons and would never waste his time
learning about them. If he did use them, he would use them in the
crudest possible way. And (B) long-term tactics and strategy using the
resources that are to hand does NOT seem to be a strong point of
anyone in the Wizarding world.

He has contempt for everyone. He wouldn't hesitate to *use* Muggles
as a weapon though.

[Toon]

Post by Howard Brazee
On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 21:03:46 -0400, Sea Wasp

Post by Sea Wasp
The fact is that (A) Voldywart has UTTER contempt for Muggles. He
would not understand nuclear weapons and would never waste his time
learning about them. If he did use them, he would use them in the
crudest possible way. And (B) long-term tactics and strategy using the
resources that are to hand does NOT seem to be a strong point of
anyone in the Wizarding world.

He has contempt for everyone. He wouldn't hesitate to *use* Muggles
as a weapon though.

Or shields. Imperius a whole gang, have them surround his HQ.

[Paracelsus]

Post by Toon

Post by Howard Brazee
On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 21:03:46 -0400, Sea Wasp

Post by Sea Wasp
The fact is that (A) Voldywart has UTTER contempt for Muggles. He
would not understand nuclear weapons and would never waste his time
learning about them. If he did use them, he would use them in the
crudest possible way. And (B) long-term tactics and strategy using the
resources that are to hand does NOT seem to be a strong point of
anyone in the Wizarding world.

He has contempt for everyone. He wouldn't hesitate to *use* Muggles
as a weapon though.

Or shields. Imperius a whole gang, have them surround his HQ.

Voldemort grew up in London during WW II. He returned to the orphanage
during summer holidays so he would have seen first hand the destructive
effects of conventional bombs.

As far as tactics are concerned, Voldemort has little use for bombs or
need to fear them. Bombs work against high value targets which are large
enough to see from the air -- cities, military bases, bridges, convoys
etc. Wizards simply don't offer this kind of target. They live scattered
about the country side in villages or hidden in the heart of Muggle
cities. Their transportation system -- the Floo network, Apparation,
portkeys -- are immune to Muggle attack. Unless an attacker could
achieve complete surprise with a nuclear weapon, most of the wizards in
an area could be a hundred miles away in a matter of a few seconds.

[Howard Brazee]

On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 12:58:35 GMT, Paracelsus

Post by Paracelsus
Unless an attacker could
achieve complete surprise with a nuclear weapon, most of the wizards in
an area could be a hundred miles away in a matter of a few seconds.

Surprise works with smaller weapons as well. And Voldemart isn't
adverse to attacking his enemies one at a time.

[William George Ferguson]

Post by Howard Brazee
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 12:58:35 GMT, Paracelsus

Post by Paracelsus
Unless an attacker could
achieve complete surprise with a nuclear weapon, most of the wizards in
an area could be a hundred miles away in a matter of a few seconds.

As I said in another post, there is no evidence in the books that the
ability and training to apparat is anywhere close to universal among
wizards in the Potterverse (of the trio, Hermoine is the only one who can
disapparat well and at will, there is no evidence that Harry can do it at
all), and some supportive evidence that it is not universal. For one
thing, if apparating were anywhere near universal, there would be no need
for the Floo Network.

Post by Howard Brazee
Surprise works with smaller weapons as well. And Voldemart isn't
adverse to attacking his enemies one at a time.

Muggles were successfully attacking wizards *somehow* back in the 12th and
13th centuries. I would assume a combination of surprise and sheer numbers
can counteract a fair amount of magical ability (obviously, really powerful
wizards are going to be pretty hard to overcome, but they are the
exception, not the rule).

[Howard Brazee]

On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 16:09:28 -0700, William George Ferguson

Post by William George Ferguson
Muggles were successfully attacking wizards *somehow* back in the 12th and
13th centuries. I would assume a combination of surprise and sheer numbers
can counteract a fair amount of magical ability (obviously, really powerful
wizards are going to be pretty hard to overcome, but they are the
exception, not the rule).

Possibly religion might have had some role here. We don't know what
kinds of gods are in her universe.

[David Johnston]

Post by Howard Brazee
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 16:09:28 -0700, William George Ferguson

Post by William George Ferguson
Muggles were successfully attacking wizards *somehow* back in the 12th and
13th centuries. I would assume a combination of surprise and sheer numbers
can counteract a fair amount of magical ability (obviously, really powerful
wizards are going to be pretty hard to overcome, but they are the
exception, not the rule).

Possibly religion might have had some role here. We don't know what
kinds of gods are in her universe.

We know that Christianity exists and the wizards of Britain are
predominantly Christian.

[Paracelsus]

Post by William George Ferguson

Post by Howard Brazee
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 12:58:35 GMT, Paracelsus

Post by Paracelsus
Unless an attacker could
achieve complete surprise with a nuclear weapon, most of the wizards in
an area could be a hundred miles away in a matter of a few seconds.

As I said in another post, there is no evidence in the books that the
ability and training to apparat is anywhere close to universal among
wizards in the Potterverse (of the trio, Hermoine is the only one who can
disapparat well and at will, there is no evidence that Harry can do it at
all), and some supportive evidence that it is not universal. For one
thing, if apparating were anywhere near universal, there would be no need
for the Floo Network.

True, not every wizard can Apparate but that would simply involve a
little more planning. They would need to set up a multi-stage evacuation
plan where people who could not Apparate would be provided with
emergency Portkeys or access to the Floo Network. The get away time
might shift from a few seconds to a few minutes.

Post by William George Ferguson

Post by Howard Brazee
Surprise works with smaller weapons as well. And Voldemart isn't
adverse to attacking his enemies one at a time.

Muggles were successfully attacking wizards *somehow* back in the 12th and
13th centuries. I would assume a combination of surprise and sheer numbers
can counteract a fair amount of magical ability (obviously, really powerful
wizards are going to be pretty hard to overcome, but they are the
exception, not the rule).

Wizards were certainly less sophisticated in the 12th or 13th century.
According to the Famous Wizard Cards, many new spells and magical
devices were developed in the last 700 years or so. Since 1692 wizards
have shown considerable skill in concealing their very existence from
the Muggle world. While they might have problems defeating a Muggle army
in a head-on confrontation, their superiority in guerilla combat is hard
to dispute.

.
.
.

[Toon]

On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 01:34:59 GMT, Paracelsus

Post by Paracelsus
The get away time
might shift from a few seconds to a few minutes.

Thta could be enough time to get them.

[Toon]

On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 16:09:28 -0700, William George Ferguson

Post by William George Ferguson
As I said in another post, there is no evidence in the books that the
ability and training to apparat is anywhere close to universal among
wizards in the Potterverse (of the trio, Hermoine is the only one who can
disapparat well and at will, there is no evidence that Harry can do it at
all),

Despite apping DD back to Hogsmeade in HBP?

Post by William George Ferguson
and some supportive evidence that it is not universal. For one
thing, if apparating were anywhere near universal, there would be no need
for the Floo Network.

And why not side along App Harry in OOP. Lupins aid he was too young.
But the MOM tells wizards to SAP little kids.

[Gene Ward Smith]

Post by Toon
Despite apping DD back to Hogsmeade in HBP?

Post by William George Ferguson
and some supportive evidence that it is not universal. For one
thing, if apparating were anywhere near universal, there would be no need
for the Floo Network.

And why not side along App Harry in OOP. Lupins aid he was too young.
But the MOM tells wizards to SAP little kids.

Sorry, you have gone over your quota in the use of acronyms and your
license to use them has been suspended for 90 days.

[Derek Lyons]

Post by Paracelsus
As far as tactics are concerned, Voldemort has little use for bombs or
need to fear them. Bombs work against high value targets which are large
enough to see from the air -- cities, military bases, bridges, convoys
etc. Wizards simply don't offer this kind of target. They live scattered
about the country side in villages or hidden in the heart of Muggle
cities. Their transportation system -- the Floo network, Apparation,
portkeys -- are immune to Muggle attack.

Do you really doubt that if V posed a threat to the Muggle world, and
the Muggles chose to respond - that the wizards of the world would
choose to sit it out?

D.

[Toon]

On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 12:58:35 GMT, Paracelsus

Post by Paracelsus

Post by Toon

Post by Howard Brazee
On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 21:03:46 -0400, Sea Wasp

Post by Sea Wasp
The fact is that (A) Voldywart has UTTER contempt for Muggles. He
would not understand nuclear weapons and would never waste his time
learning about them. If he did use them, he would use them in the
crudest possible way. And (B) long-term tactics and strategy using the
resources that are to hand does NOT seem to be a strong point of
anyone in the Wizarding world.

He has contempt for everyone. He wouldn't hesitate to *use* Muggles
as a weapon though.

Or shields. Imperius a whole gang, have them surround his HQ.

Voldemort grew up in London during WW II. He returned to the orphanage
during summer holidays so he would have seen first hand the destructive
effects of conventional bombs.
As far as tactics are concerned, Voldemort has little use for bombs or
need to fear them. Bombs work against high value targets which are large
enough to see from the air -- cities, military bases, bridges, convoys
etc. Wizards simply don't offer this kind of target. They live scattered
about the country side in villages or hidden in the heart of Muggle
cities. Their transportation system -- the Floo network, Apparation,
portkeys -- are immune to Muggle attack. Unless an attacker could
achieve complete surprise with a nuclear weapon, most of the wizards in
an area could be a hundred miles away in a matter of a few seconds.

Great for bombing Muggle cities. Frame another country. Start wars.
Sit back and laugh.

[Howard Brazee]

Post by Toon
Great for bombing Muggle cities. Frame another country. Start wars.
Sit back and laugh.

A bombing war between two countries could be pretty inconvenient for
wizards in each country.

[Toon]

Post by Howard Brazee

Post by Toon
Great for bombing Muggle cities. Frame another country. Start wars.
Sit back and laugh.

A bombing war between two countries could be pretty inconvenient for
wizards in each country.

But not Voldemort, who is safe and sound and laughing all the way to
dominance.

[Tim Bruening]

Post by J.J. O'Shea

Post by Sea Wasp

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening
However, Voldemort would have had control (via Prime Minister
Tony Blair) of Britian's nukes, and could have threatened to
use them against anyone who invaded Britain, thus forcing the
rest of the Muggle world to cancel their invasion plans.

Life doesn't work that simply, only it Books it does.

How would you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

Even if Voldemort won in Britain, there would still be other wizards
around who could inert the nukes as they were fired, most likely.

If they know where they are. Let's say that V stuck a nuke in a sack of
holding, like Hermoine's purse, and had someone take it to New York, and then
rented an office and put the sack into a desk drawer. Finding it inside the
sack is going to be... interesting. Turning it off when you don't even know
its there is going to be... interesting.
V being the kind of guy he is, it would be simple for him to get someone else
to go and open the sack and let it out. If the nuke was armed before going
inside, there's now a live nuke sitting in the middle of New York. V knows
where it is and when it's coming out. Odds are excellent that he can trip it
_before_ any other wizard can locate and damp it.

What happens if the nuke explodes INSIDE the sack of holding?

[Tim Bruening]

Post by Sea Wasp

Post by Tim Bruening

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening
However, Voldemort would have had control (via Prime Minister
Tony Blair) of Britian's nukes, and could have threatened to
use them against anyone who invaded Britain, thus forcing the
rest of the Muggle world to cancel their invasion plans.

Life doesn't work that simply, only it Books it does.

How would you invade a nuclear power without being nuked?

Even if Voldemort won in Britain, there would still be other wizards
around who could inert the nukes as they were fired, most likely.
Muggle tech isn't used by the wizards in great part because they view
it as unreliable; it can be shut down apparently by very simple spells.

But Voldemort could place protective spells on Britain's nukes to block other
wizards' anti-nuke curses.

[Toon]

Post by Christian Potzinger

Post by Tim Bruening
However, Voldemort would have had control (via Prime Minister
Tony Blair) of Britian's nukes, and could have threatened to
use them against anyone who invaded Britain, thus forcing the
rest of the Muggle world to cancel their invasion plans.

Life doesn't work that simply, only it Books it does.

That'd be funny. Give me $1M or I'll nuke you.

[Jacob W. Haller]

Post by Tim Bruening
However, Voldemort would have had control (via Prime Minister Tony Blair)
of Britian's nukes, and could have threatened to use them against anyone
who invaded Britain, thus forcing the rest of the Muggle world to cancel
their invasion plans.

A side note: If I have my dates right, Margaret Thatcher was PM during
Voldemort's first attempt to take over, and John Major was PM during the
second.

-jwgh

[Chris Thompson]

[sci.military dropped from newsgroups]

Post by Jacob W. Haller

Post by Tim Bruening
However, Voldemort would have had control (via Prime Minister Tony Blair)
of Britian's nukes, and could have threatened to use them against anyone
who invaded Britain, thus forcing the rest of the Muggle world to cancel
their invasion plans.

A side note: If I have my dates right, Margaret Thatcher was PM during
Voldemort's first attempt to take over, and John Major was PM during the
second.

The "first attempt" had been going on several years, and so must have
started back in the premierships of Wilson (#2) + Callaghan: but yes,
it came to a climax in the early Thatcher years.

And John Major has to be the Muggle PM in HPatHBP chapter 1 (July 1996),
if it is happening in our timeline. The character sketch certainly
suits him quite well. But Blair has taken over by HPatDH. No-one in the
wizarding community cares about things like that, of course: not even
Kingsley Shacklebolt mentions that he's guarding a different Muggle PM
than when he started doing that.