Discussion:
Where is Durmstrang Located?
(too old to reply)
s***@gmail.com
2005-05-13 00:59:19 UTC
Permalink
This has always puzzled me. I think it's pretty obvious Bauexbaton is
in France, but what about Durmstrang. The name sounds German, and the
uniform includes fur capes. Krum is Bulgarian, and Karkarov sounds
like a Slavic name. I forget--were the surnames of the other students
mentioned? Also, does Germany get so cold that they need to be bundles
up like that? I thought maybe it could be in Bulgaria, since Krum is on
the Bulgarian quidditch team and would need to practice with his
teammates. After all is said and done, though, I think it's somewhere
in Russia. What are your thoughts? One more question: are these the
ony 3 wizard schools in Europe? I mean, that's a pretty narrow range
of choices, especially if you live in a country where neither English,
French, or Bulgarian/Russian/German is your native language.
Richard Eney
2005-05-13 05:50:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
This has always puzzled me. I think it's pretty obvious Bauexbaton is
in France, but what about Durmstrang. The name sounds German, and the
uniform includes fur capes. Krum is Bulgarian, and Karkarov sounds
like a Slavic name. I forget--were the surnames of the other students
mentioned? Also, does Germany get so cold that they need to be bundles
up like that?
I believe they have winter and snow.
Post by s***@gmail.com
I thought maybe it could be in Bulgaria, since Krum is on
the Bulgarian quidditch team and would need to practice with his
teammates. After all is said and done, though, I think it's somewhere
in Russia. What are your thoughts?
I think Durmstrang is in the mountains near Lake Hermanstadt, wherever
that is. (In Bram Stoker, that's the location of a magical school in
Europe where Dracula studied.)
Post by s***@gmail.com
are these the only 3 wizard schools in Europe? I mean, that's
a pretty narrow range of choices, especially if you live in a
country where neither English, French, or Bulgarian/Russian/German
is your native language.
They're the three most renowned, at least. I wouldn't be surprised
to learn that there were smaller ones, considered the equivalent of
homeschooling or a trade school. The big three might be the equivalent
of the most famous three private schools in the UK, or the Ivy League
colleges in the US.

=Tamar
Toon
2005-05-13 10:02:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
This has always puzzled me. I think it's pretty obvious Bauexbaton is
in France, but what about Durmstrang. The name sounds German, and the
uniform includes fur capes. Krum is Bulgarian, and Karkarov sounds
like a Slavic name. I forget--were the surnames of the other students
mentioned? Also, does Germany get so cold that they need to be bundles
up like that? I thought maybe it could be in Bulgaria, since Krum is on
the Bulgarian quidditch team and would need to practice with his
teammates. After all is said and done, though, I think it's somewhere
in Russia. What are your thoughts? One more question: are these the
ony 3 wizard schools in Europe? I mean, that's a pretty narrow range
of choices, especially if you live in a country where neither English,
French, or Bulgarian/Russian/German is your native language.
Yes, just those three. Hence the TRi in Tri Wizard Tournament.
Butterfly
2005-05-20 22:06:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toon
Post by s***@gmail.com
This has always puzzled me. I think it's pretty obvious Bauexbaton is
in France, but what about Durmstrang. The name sounds German, and the
uniform includes fur capes. Krum is Bulgarian, and Karkarov sounds
like a Slavic name. I forget--were the surnames of the other
students
Post by Toon
Post by s***@gmail.com
mentioned? Also, does Germany get so cold that they need to be bundles
up like that? I thought maybe it could be in Bulgaria, since Krum is on
the Bulgarian quidditch team and would need to practice with his
teammates. After all is said and done, though, I think it's
somewhere
Post by Toon
Post by s***@gmail.com
in Russia. What are your thoughts? One more question: are these the
ony 3 wizard schools in Europe? I mean, that's a pretty narrow range
of choices, especially if you live in a country where neither
English,
Post by Toon
Post by s***@gmail.com
French, or Bulgarian/Russian/German is your native language.
Yes, just those three. Hence the TRi in Tri Wizard Tournament.
Not necessarily. There could be smaller wizarding schools in Europe.
They are just not as big and popular as Hogwarts, Durmstrang, and
Beauxbatons. Only those three powerful schools could participate in the
Triwizard Tournament because it is a tradition
IMS
2005-05-21 01:05:25 UTC
Permalink
(...gently snipped......)
Post by s***@gmail.com
.....One more question: are these the
Post by s***@gmail.com
ony 3 wizard schools in Europe? I mean, that's a pretty narrow
range
Post by s***@gmail.com
of choices, especially if you live in a country where neither
English,
Post by s***@gmail.com
French, or Bulgarian/Russian/German is your native language.
Yes, just those three. Hence the TRi in Tri Wizard Tournament.
Not necessarily. There could be smaller wizarding schools in Europe.
They are just not as big and popular as Hogwarts, Durmstrang, and
Beauxbatons. Only those three powerful schools could participate in the
Triwizard Tournament because it is a tradition
"The Triwizard Tournament was first established some seven hundred years
ago as a friendly competition between the three largest European schools
of wizardry: Hogwarts, Beauxbatons, and Durmstrang."

Dumbledore, GOF, Chapter 12, "The Triwizard Tournament."

So there are other schools, but they are smaller.

--Irene



--------------
You only live once, but if you do it right, once is enough.
--Mae West
--------------
Butterfly
2005-05-21 02:32:17 UTC
Permalink
Yes, that is what I just said
Post by IMS
(...gently snipped......)
Post by s***@gmail.com
.....One more question: are these the
Post by s***@gmail.com
ony 3 wizard schools in Europe? I mean, that's a pretty narrow
range
Post by s***@gmail.com
of choices, especially if you live in a country where neither
English,
Post by s***@gmail.com
French, or Bulgarian/Russian/German is your native language.
Yes, just those three. Hence the TRi in Tri Wizard Tournament.
Not necessarily. There could be smaller wizarding schools in Europe.
They are just not as big and popular as Hogwarts, Durmstrang, and
Beauxbatons. Only those three powerful schools could participate in the
Triwizard Tournament because it is a tradition
"The Triwizard Tournament was first established some seven hundred years
ago as a friendly competition between the three largest European schools
of wizardry: Hogwarts, Beauxbatons, and Durmstrang."
Dumbledore, GOF, Chapter 12, "The Triwizard Tournament."
So there are other schools, but they are smaller.
--Irene
--------------
You only live once, but if you do it right, once is enough.
--Mae West
--------------
IMS
2005-05-21 02:47:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Butterfly
Yes, that is what I just said
ANd I was agreeing with you, and just stating where it was in the books.

---sorry for top posting everybody---

-Irene
Post by Butterfly
Post by IMS
(...gently snipped......)
Post by s***@gmail.com
.....One more question: are these the
Post by s***@gmail.com
ony 3 wizard schools in Europe? I mean, that's a pretty narrow
range
Post by s***@gmail.com
of choices, especially if you live in a country where neither
English,
Post by s***@gmail.com
French, or Bulgarian/Russian/German is your native language.
Yes, just those three. Hence the TRi in Tri Wizard Tournament.
Not necessarily. There could be smaller wizarding schools in Europe.
They are just not as big and popular as Hogwarts, Durmstrang, and
Beauxbatons. Only those three powerful schools could participate in
the
Post by IMS
Post by s***@gmail.com
Triwizard Tournament because it is a tradition
"The Triwizard Tournament was first established some seven hundred
years
Post by IMS
ago as a friendly competition between the three largest European
schools
Post by IMS
of wizardry: Hogwarts, Beauxbatons, and Durmstrang."
Dumbledore, GOF, Chapter 12, "The Triwizard Tournament."
So there are other schools, but they are smaller.
--Irene
--------------
You only live once, but if you do it right, once is enough.
--Mae West
--------------
--------------
You only live once, but if you do it right, once is enough.
--Mae West
--------------
Butterfly
2005-05-21 03:20:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by IMS
Post by Butterfly
Yes, that is what I just said
ANd I was agreeing with you, and just stating where it was in the books.
---sorry for top posting everybody---
-Irene
Aaaaah, got it! :)
Post by IMS
Post by Butterfly
On 20 May 2005 15:06:50 -0700, "Butterfly"
(...gently snipped......)
Post by s***@gmail.com
.....One more question: are these the
Post by s***@gmail.com
ony 3 wizard schools in Europe? I mean, that's a pretty narrow
range
Post by s***@gmail.com
of choices, especially if you live in a country where neither
English,
Post by s***@gmail.com
French, or Bulgarian/Russian/German is your native language.
Yes, just those three. Hence the TRi in Tri Wizard Tournament.
Not necessarily. There could be smaller wizarding schools in Europe.
They are just not as big and popular as Hogwarts, Durmstrang, and
Beauxbatons. Only those three powerful schools could participate in
the
Post by s***@gmail.com
Triwizard Tournament because it is a tradition
"The Triwizard Tournament was first established some seven hundred
years
ago as a friendly competition between the three largest European
schools
of wizardry: Hogwarts, Beauxbatons, and Durmstrang."
Dumbledore, GOF, Chapter 12, "The Triwizard Tournament."
So there are other schools, but they are smaller.
--Irene
--------------
You only live once, but if you do it right, once is enough.
--Mae West
--------------
--------------
You only live once, but if you do it right, once is enough.
--Mae West
--------------
Butterfly
2005-05-23 01:43:13 UTC
Permalink
aaaaah! got it! :)
Post by IMS
On 20 May 2005 19:32:17 -0700, "Butterfly"
Post by Butterfly
Yes, that is what I just said
ANd I was agreeing with you, and just stating where it was in the
books.
---sorry for top posting everybody---
-Irene
Aaaaah, got it! :)
Post by Butterfly
On 20 May 2005 15:06:50 -0700, "Butterfly"
(...gently snipped......)
Post by s***@gmail.com
.....One more question: are these the
Post by s***@gmail.com
ony 3 wizard schools in Europe? I mean, that's a pretty
narrow
Post by Butterfly
Post by s***@gmail.com
range
Post by s***@gmail.com
of choices, especially if you live in a country where
neither
Post by IMS
Post by Butterfly
Post by s***@gmail.com
English,
Post by s***@gmail.com
French, or Bulgarian/Russian/German is your native language.
Yes, just those three. Hence the TRi in Tri Wizard
Tournament.
Post by IMS
Post by Butterfly
Post by s***@gmail.com
Not necessarily. There could be smaller wizarding schools in
Europe.
Post by Butterfly
Post by s***@gmail.com
They are just not as big and popular as Hogwarts, Durmstrang, and
Beauxbatons. Only those three powerful schools could
participate
Post by IMS
in
Post by Butterfly
the
Post by s***@gmail.com
Triwizard Tournament because it is a tradition
"The Triwizard Tournament was first established some seven hundred
years
ago as a friendly competition between the three largest European
schools
of wizardry: Hogwarts, Beauxbatons, and Durmstrang."
Dumbledore, GOF, Chapter 12, "The Triwizard Tournament."
So there are other schools, but they are smaller.
--Irene
--------------
You only live once, but if you do it right, once is enough.
--Mae West
--------------
--------------
You only live once, but if you do it right, once is enough.
--Mae West
--------------
Dave Hinz
2005-05-22 12:21:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by IMS
Post by Butterfly
Yes, that is what I just said
ANd I was agreeing with you, and just stating where it was in the books.
---sorry for top posting everybody---
Um, so then just trim the rest...
FRED ZICARD
2005-05-13 14:48:11 UTC
Permalink
1. I think it might be somewhere in one of the Scandinavian countries.
2. Poliakoff
Stacie
2005-05-13 19:10:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
This has always puzzled me. I think it's pretty obvious Bauexbaton is
in France, but what about Durmstrang. The name sounds German, and the
uniform includes fur capes. Krum is Bulgarian, and Karkarov sounds
like a Slavic name.
I've seen rather good, well-reasoned theories that it's either in
Norway or Russia. They seem to fit the physical description that Viktor
gives at the Yule Ball and the weather patterns the best. This is one
of the best summmaries of the arguments I could find.

http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/geography.html
Post by s***@gmail.com
I forget--were the surnames of the other students
mentioned? Also, does Germany get so cold that they need to be bundles
up like that? I thought maybe it could be in Bulgaria, since Krum is on
the Bulgarian quidditch team and would need to practice with his
teammates.
I figured he could easily Portkey, and/or take a ferry of some sort.
There's only about 50 miles of ocean between one bit of Bulgaria's
coast and part of Russia's there at the Black Sea. I'm sure the school
would probably make some concessions about him having to study outside
the classroom and travel a bit.

The German name could just be from a German founder. And it seems that
the students are possibly required to learn English in order to study
at the school. Or maybe they do classes in German or Russian, or some
other "official language" that students must know or learn. Durmstrang
is supposed to be pretty elite, so maybe being multilingual is old hat
there.
Post by s***@gmail.com
After all is said and done, though, I think it's somewhere
in Russia. What are your thoughts?
That would probably be my pet theory. Maybe somewhere in or near
Siberia, in a big unplottable expanse, to keep the Muggles at bay. But
really, when you consider that large areas could be made unplottable, I
guess it could be darned near anywhere. Maybe there's a whole eighth
continent or large island Muggles know nothing about...
Troels Forchhammer
2005-05-13 20:44:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
This has always puzzled me.
Since the library is off-line at the moment, I hope you'll forgive me
for quoting the relevant article from the Potterverse FAQ in full.

1. Where is Durmstrang?

Durmstrang's whereabouts are kept secret, we learn, but
there are still a few clues to where it is located

In [GoF-11] we read:

'Durmstrang's another wizarding school?' said
Harry.
'Yes,' said Hermione sniffily, 'and it's got a
horrible reputation. According to An Appraisal of
Magical Education in Europe, it puts a lot of
emphasis on the Dark Arts.'
'I think I've heard of it,' said Ron vaguely.
'Where is it? What country?'
'Well, nobody knows, do they?' said Hermione,
raising her eyebrows.
'Er — why not?' said Harry.
'There's traditionally been a lot of rivalry
between all the magic schools. Durmstrang and
Beauxbatons like to conceal their whereabouts so
nobody can steal their secrets,' said Hermione
matter-of-factly.
'Come off it,' said Ron, starting to laugh.
'Durmstrang's got to be about the same size as
Hogwarts — how are you going to hide a dirty great
castle?'
'But Hogwarts is hidden,' said Hermione, in
surprise, 'everyone knows that ... well, everyone
who's read Hogwarts: A History, anyway.'
'Just you, then,' said Ron. 'So go on — how
d'you hide a place like Hogwarts?'
'It's bewitched,' said Hermione. 'If a Muggle
looks at it, all they see is a mouldering old ruin
with a sign over the entrance saying DANGER, DO
NOT ENTER, UNSAFE.'
'So Durmstrang'll just look like a ruin to an
outsider too?'
'Maybe,' said Hermione, shrugging, 'or it
might have Muggle-Repelling Charms on it, like the
World Cup Stadium. And to keep foreign wizards
from finding it, they'll have made it Unplottable
-'
'Come again?'
'Well, you can enchant a building so it's
impossible to plot on a map, can't you?'
'Er ... if you say so,' said Harry.
'But I think Durmstrang must be somewhere in
the far north,' said Hermione thoughtfully.
'Somewhere very cold, because they've got fur
capes as part of their uniforms.'
'Ah, think of the possibilities,' said Ron
dreamily. 'It would've been so easy to push Malfoy
off a glacier and make it look like an accident
... shame his mother likes him ...'

And in [GoF-23]:

'Vell, ve have a castle also, not as big as
this, nor as comfortable, I am thinking,' he was
telling Hermione. 'Ve have just four floors, and
the fires are lit only for magical purposes. But
ve have grounds larger even than these — though in
vinter, ve have very little daylight, so ve are
not enjoying them. But in summer ve are flying
every day, over the lakes and the mountains -'
'Now, now, Viktor!' said Karkaroff with a
laugh that didn't reach his cold eyes. 'Don't go
giving away anything else, now, or your charming
friend will know exactly where to find us!'
Dumbledore smiled, his eyes twinkling. 'Igor,
all this secrecy ... one would almost think you
didn't want visitors.'

The last clue is the one name we learn beyond Krum (who's
Bulgarian) and Karkaroff is "Poliakoff" ([GoF-16]). To
summarise the clues to Durmstrang's whereabouts:

+ Hermione believes it to be to the "far north."
Where the "far North." starts is of course not
universally agreed upon. To a Dane (as I am) from about
the latitude of Edinburgh you have to be at least very
close to the arctic circle — north of the 65th degree
latitude, while for someone from Cornwall, Scotland is
perhaps far north.
+ Krum tells: "- though in vinter, ve have very little
daylight ..."
Again discussions have raged as to what constitutes
"very little daylight." Must there be a little daylight
every day, or should we read Krum completely literally
as meaning very little daylight through the whole
winter? What can be said is that Krum contrasts it to
Hogwarts at Christmas time — this would be about 6
hours and 40 minutes on the shortest day (calculated
for the 57th degree northern latitude, which is
approximately mid-Scotland).
+ The local geography features mountains and lakes.
Whether or not Ron's joke about glaciers should be
taken seriously, I will leave to you ...
Again the question of what constitutes a mountain can
be debated. How tall does it need to be?
+ The names ending in -off and -ov belong to the group of
Slavic languages — as does Bulgarian.
In the magical community, however, this does not
necessarily mean that the school is located in a region
where the language is Slavic.
+ A rather more vague clue is the sparing use of fires at
Durmstrang — does this indicate the lack of a ready
supply of wood? Is Durmstrang located in an unforested
region?

It appears to be the consensus that Durmstrang must be
located north of the 60th degree northern latitude, but it
is not agreed upon whether positions north of the arctic
circle are permissible. Given the "lakes and mountains" clue
the Scandinavian peninsula, the Kola peninsula and the
western side of the Ural seem to be the most likely
candidates together with the mountainous islands north of
the continent if you allow positions north of the arctic
circle.
Post by s***@gmail.com
I think it's pretty obvious Bauexbaton is in France,
That is pretty obvious.
Post by s***@gmail.com
but what about Durmstrang.
Actually it has been discussed rather emphatically once or twice in the
group.
Post by s***@gmail.com
The name sounds German,
The name is (most likely) a spoonerism, or parody, of "Sturm und Drang"
(Storm and Stress) -- a German artistic movement represented, among
others, by Goethe and Schiller, and well liked by the Nazi party.

In English
<http://www.litencyc.com/php/stopics.php?rec=true&UID=1266>
<http://www.press.jhu.edu/books/hopkins_guide_to_literary_theory/german_
theory_and_criticism-_1.html>

In German
<http://www.ni.schule.de/~pohl/literatur/epochen/stdrang.htm>

And about the connection with Durmstrang of Harry Potter:
<http://www.theninemuses.net/hp/4.html#durmstrang>
Post by s***@gmail.com
and the uniform includes fur capes.
Implying cold surroundings.
Post by s***@gmail.com
Krum is Bulgarian, and Karkarov sounds like a Slavic name. I forget
-- were the surnames of the other students mentioned?
Only Poliakoff.

Questions that would be extremely relevant in this context would be how
the Iron Curtain affected the magical community in Europe? And whether
Karkaroff went to Hogwarts (his comment about "Dear old Hogwarts" seems
to imply as much)?
Post by s***@gmail.com
Also, does Germany get so cold that they need to be bundles up like
that?
Germany is not it. Too far south
Post by s***@gmail.com
I thought maybe it could be in Bulgaria, since Krum is on the
Bulgarian quidditch team and would need to practice with his
teammates.
Too far south -- there is a lot of daylight during the winter in
Bulgaria.
Post by s***@gmail.com
After all is said and done, though, I think it's somewhere in Russia.
What are your thoughts?
I also favour a location in Russia. I've argued before for a location on
one of the Islands off the north coast of European Russia like e.g.
Novaya Zemlya (there's an area there that is ostensibly closed to
everyone because it has been used for test of nuclear bombs -- can
anyone imagine a better cover for magical school?)
Post by s***@gmail.com
One more question: are these the ony 3 wizard schools in Europe?
No. They are three largest:

" The Triwizard Tournament was first established some seven
hundred years ago as a friendly competition between the
three largest European schools of wizardry: Hogwarts,
Beauxbatons, and Durmstrang."
[GoF-12 'The Triwizard Tournament']
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is t.forch(a)email.dk

People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought
which they avoid.
- Soren Kierkegaard
Morten Holm
2005-05-20 20:40:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
This has always puzzled me. I think it's pretty obvious Bauexbaton is
in France, but what about Durmstrang. The name sounds German, and the
uniform includes fur capes. Krum is Bulgarian, and Karkarov sounds
like a Slavic name. I forget--were the surnames of the other students
mentioned? Also, does Germany get so cold that they need to be bundles
up like that? I thought maybe it could be in Bulgaria, since Krum is on
Norway (Scandinavia) can get pretty damned cold (-30c), but fur capes
are not much in use. I live at N69°, and I never use a fur cape :-)
I'd aim *way* further north, like Svalbard, Spitsbergen
( http://www.svalbard.com/SvalbardFAQ.html ).
--
=o__ Netrom Mloh <***@i2c.ten> <***@toofgib.moc>
_() \_ N69°39,0' E018°56,9' PGP: 0x898DDDA5(rsa) 0x7EBA2D5D(dh)
(_)~\(_) The more I deal with people, the more I love my dog.
Troels Forchhammer
2005-05-20 21:00:51 UTC
Permalink
In message <news:RWrje.723$***@juliett.dax.net> Morten Holm
<***@noozpam.bigfoot.com> enriched us with:
<snip>
Post by Morten Holm
Norway (Scandinavia) can get pretty damned cold (-30c), but fur
capes are not much in use. I live at N69°, and I never use a fur
cape :-) I'd aim *way* further north, like Svalbard, Spitsbergen
( http://www.svalbard.com/SvalbardFAQ.html ).
Novaya Zemlya, I say ;-)

Still, we have to consider that the description of Durmstrang is made
on the basis of Rowling living (at that time) in Edinburgh (about
56°N), from which perspective I am sure that fur coats are suitable
already about Trondheim (63-64°N) -- not to mention Tromsø ;-)

On the other hand we shouldn't accept the perspective of the cold-
sensitive southeners from England and Wales ;-)
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

"It would seem that you have no useful skill or talent whatsoever," he
said. "Have you thought of going into teaching?"
- (Terry Pratchett, Mort)
David M. Sueme
2005-05-29 22:44:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
This has always puzzled me. I think it's pretty obvious Bauexbaton is
in France, but what about Durmstrang. The name sounds German, and the
uniform includes fur capes.
This is something that puzzled me for about 13.25 seconds. Maybe
less.

It isn't in France. It is somewhere in the Germanic language speaking
parts of Europe. And to the cold north.

So exactly where? Danemark? Sweden? What does it matter - to
English schoolchildren, everything "German" is the stuff of bedtime
Wagnerian horror stories.

It doesn't matter exactly where Durmstrang exactly exists.

Dave

When the Prime Minister spoke yesterday I thought to myself, "I hope I'll
be able to give a speech like that when I grow up" - Bill Clinton, October
2, 2002

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