Seeing through an invisibility cloak

[Gerrit Vicin]

Hello!

At some points we, as readers, are left under the impression that
Dumbledore is able to see through an invisibility cloak.

I remember a scene from one of the movies (I don't know which right now)
when Harry hides under his invisibility cloak eavesdropping on a
converstaion between Snape and, I think, another teacher. Suddenly Snape
gropes in Harry's direction as though he feels someone or something in
his proximity.
I don't know whether this scene is described the same way in the book
(though I've read all the books).
That both Dumbledore and Snape are good at Legilimency led me (perhaps
for want of something else to think about) to the idea that it is
actually Legilimency that enables a Witch or Wizard to see, or better
sense someone hiding under an invisibility cloak.

Just a thought, though I don't know of what significance this might be.

What do you think?

gerriT

[Jane Grey]

Post by Gerrit Vicin
Hello!
At some points we, as readers, are left under the impression that
Dumbledore is able to see through an invisibility cloak.
I remember a scene from one of the movies (I don't know which right now)
when Harry hides under his invisibility cloak eavesdropping on a
converstaion between Snape and, I think, another teacher. Suddenly Snape
gropes in Harry's direction as though he feels someone or something in
his proximity.
I don't know whether this scene is described the same way in the book
(though I've read all the books).
That both Dumbledore and Snape are good at Legilimency led me (perhaps
for want of something else to think about) to the idea that it is
actually Legilimency that enables a Witch or Wizard to see, or better
sense someone hiding under an invisibility cloak.
Just a thought, though I don't know of what significance this might be.
What do you think?

I know which scene you are thinking of in the PS movie with Snape but
there wasn't a scene exactly like that in the book, there was only one
time when harry met Filch and Snape down a narrow corridor but managed
to get into a classroom whose door was ajar in the nick of time, see
below.

"Harry stood rooted to the spot as Filch and Snape came around the
corner
ahead. They couldn't see him, of course, but it was a narrow corridor
and if they came much nearer they'd knock right into him -- the cloak
didn't stop him from being solid.

He backed away as quietly as he could. A door stood ajar to his left.
It
was his only hope. He squeezed through it, holding his breath, trying
not to move it, and to his relief he managed to get inside the room
without their noticing anything."

I also remembered this from PS tho;

Harry felt as though his insides had turned to ice. He looked behind
him. Sitting on one of the desks by the wall was none other than Albus
Dumbledore. Harry must have walked straight past him, so desperate to
get to the mirror he hadn't noticed him.

" -- I didn't see you, sir."

"Strange how nearsighted being invisible can make you," said
Dumbledore,
and Harry was relieved to see that he was smiling.

"So," said Dumbledore, slipping off the desk to sit on the floor with
Harry, "you, like hundreds before you, have discovered the delights of
the Mirror of Erised."

"I didn't know it was called that, Sir."

"But I expect you've realized by now what it does?"

"It -- well -- it shows me my family --"

"And it showed your friend Ron himself as head boy."

"How did you know --?"

"I don't need a cloak to become invisible," said Dumbledore gently.
-------------
and this from CoS whilst they are under cloak in Hagrid's, just before
Fudge comes to remove AD and imprison Hagrid;

"However," said Dumbledore, speaking very slowly and clearly so that
none of them could miss a word, "you will find that I will only truely
have left this school when none here are loyal to be. You will also
find that help will always be given at hogwarts to those who ask for
it." For a sec harry was alomost sure that Dumbledore eye's flicked
towards the corner where he nad rom stood hidden.
--------------

it gives us the distinct impression that AD could see through
invisabililty cloaks. But I don't know about your Legilimency though
because my impression from OftP was that the wizard attempting
Legilimency needs visual contact of the subject before he can read his
minds. Your theory suggests to me that they can hear thoughts randomly
rather than only when they attempt Legilimens on a subject of choice.
interesting idea tho.

Jane.

[Green-Eyed Chris]

Post by Jane Grey

Post by Gerrit Vicin
Hello!
At some points we, as readers, are left under the impression that
Dumbledore is able to see through an invisibility cloak.
I remember a scene from one of the movies (I don't know which right now)
when Harry hides under his invisibility cloak eavesdropping on a
converstaion between Snape and, I think, another teacher. Suddenly Snape
gropes in Harry's direction as though he feels someone or something in
his proximity.
I don't know whether this scene is described the same way in the book
(though I've read all the books).
That both Dumbledore and Snape are good at Legilimency led me (perhaps
for want of something else to think about) to the idea that it is
actually Legilimency that enables a Witch or Wizard to see, or better
sense someone hiding under an invisibility cloak.
Just a thought, though I don't know of what significance this might be.
What do you think?

I know which scene you are thinking of in the PS movie with Snape but
there wasn't a scene exactly like that in the book, there was only one
time when harry met Filch and Snape down a narrow corridor but managed
to get into a classroom whose door was ajar in the nick of time, see
below.
"Harry stood rooted to the spot as Filch and Snape came around the
corner
ahead. They couldn't see him, of course, but it was a narrow corridor
and if they came much nearer they'd knock right into him -- the cloak
didn't stop him from being solid.
He backed away as quietly as he could. A door stood ajar to his left.
It
was his only hope. He squeezed through it, holding his breath, trying
not to move it, and to his relief he managed to get inside the room
without their noticing anything."
I also remembered this from PS tho;
Harry felt as though his insides had turned to ice. He looked behind
him. Sitting on one of the desks by the wall was none other than Albus
Dumbledore. Harry must have walked straight past him, so desperate to
get to the mirror he hadn't noticed him.
" -- I didn't see you, sir."
"Strange how nearsighted being invisible can make you," said
Dumbledore,
and Harry was relieved to see that he was smiling.
"So," said Dumbledore, slipping off the desk to sit on the floor with
Harry, "you, like hundreds before you, have discovered the delights of
the Mirror of Erised."
"I didn't know it was called that, Sir."
"But I expect you've realized by now what it does?"
"It -- well -- it shows me my family --"
"And it showed your friend Ron himself as head boy."
"How did you know --?"
"I don't need a cloak to become invisible," said Dumbledore gently.
-------------
and this from CoS whilst they are under cloak in Hagrid's, just before
Fudge comes to remove AD and imprison Hagrid;
"However," said Dumbledore, speaking very slowly and clearly so that
none of them could miss a word, "you will find that I will only truely
have left this school when none here are loyal to be. You will also
find that help will always be given at hogwarts to those who ask for
it." For a sec harry was alomost sure that Dumbledore eye's flicked
towards the corner where he nad rom stood hidden.
--------------
it gives us the distinct impression that AD could see through
invisabililty cloaks. But I don't know about your Legilimency though
because my impression from OftP was that the wizard attempting
Legilimency needs visual contact of the subject before he can read his
minds. Your theory suggests to me that they can hear thoughts randomly
rather than only when they attempt Legilimens on a subject of choice.
interesting idea tho.

I think other people might just hear someone breathing, or clothes
rustling under an invisibility cloak. Possibly they could smell something.
Mad-Eye Moody's roving eye, however, can see through them (CoS, Ch. 25):

Harrys heart gave a horrible jolt. Moody could see through
Invisibility CloaksŠ he alone could see the full strangeness of the
scene:
Snape in his nightshirt, Filch clutching the egg, and he, Harry,
trapped in the stairs behind them. Moody¹s lopsided gash of a
mouth opened in surprise. For a few seconds, he and Harry
stared straight into each other¹s eyes. Then Moody closed his
mouth and turned his blue eye upon Snape again.

Chris

[FRED ZICARD]

There was no Mad-Eye Moody in CoS.
Ron: "Gwenog Jones? THE Gwenog Jones? Captain Of The Holyhead
Harpies?"

[Green-Eyed Chris]

Post by FRED ZICARD
There was no Mad-Eye Moody in CoS.

Mea maxima culpa! Kindly read GoF instead of CoS.

Chris

[Phil Da Lick!]

Post by Green-Eyed Chris
I think other people might just hear someone breathing, or clothes
rustling under an invisibility cloak. Possibly they could smell something.
Harrys heart gave a horrible jolt. Moody could see through
Invisibility CloaksŠ he alone could see the full strangeness of the

This always bothered me. How could crouch see through the cloak as his
magic eye was in fact part of the illusion of the polyjuice potion.

[Fish Eye no Miko]

Post by Phil Da Lick!
This always bothered me. How could crouch see through the cloak as his
magic eye was in fact part of the illusion of the polyjuice potion.

Nope.. He'd actually taken the magical eye from Moody.

Catherine Johnson.

[h***@hotmail.com]

but it wasn't an illusion of polyjuice potion becos if u remember at
the end of the book moody says that his eye keeps stickin since that
scum wore it so crouch did wear his eye. dumbledore maybe able to see
through invisibility cloaks but the others can't they probably just
sense a presence just like we do.

[Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen]

Post by Phil Da Lick!

Post by Green-Eyed Chris
Harrys heart gave a horrible jolt. Moody could see through
Invisibility CloaksŠ he alone could see the full strangeness of the

This always bothered me. How could crouch see through the cloak as his
magic eye was in fact part of the illusion of the polyjuice potion.

You're wrong, Crouch wore the eye (and leg) belonging to the real Moody.


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

[Aaron]

Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

Post by Phil Da Lick!

Post by Green-Eyed Chris
Harrys heart gave a horrible jolt. Moody could see through
Invisibility CloaksŠ he alone could see the full strangeness of the

This always bothered me. How could crouch see through the cloak as his
magic eye was in fact part of the illusion of the polyjuice potion.

You're wrong, Crouch wore the eye (and leg) belonging to the real Moody.

No kidding. Think about it realistically: the PP uses a part of
someone's body to effect the transformation. Logically, this is to
transform your body into a replica of their body, in its current form
(or it would be useless, no?). So, things like a wooden leg or a glass
eye wouldn't appear with the use of the PP. A stump of a leg and an
empty eye socket would.

Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

-Aaron

[Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen]

Post by Aaron

Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

Post by Phil Da Lick!

Post by Green-Eyed Chris
Harrys heart gave a horrible jolt. Moody could see through
Invisibility Cloaks=8A he alone could see the full strangeness of the

This always bothered me. How could crouch see through the cloak as his
magic eye was in fact part of the illusion of the polyjuice potion.

You're wrong, Crouch wore the eye (and leg) belonging to the real Moody.

No kidding. Think about it realistically: the PP uses a part of
someone's body to effect the transformation. Logically, this is to
transform your body into a replica of their body, in its current form
(or it would be useless, no?). So, things like a wooden leg or a glass
eye wouldn't appear with the use of the PP. A stump of a leg and an
empty eye socket would.

Indeed Aaron, but Phil thought otherwise.


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

[Aaron]

Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

Post by Aaron

Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

Post by Phil Da Lick!

Post by Green-Eyed Chris
Harrys heart gave a horrible jolt. Moody could see through
Invisibility Cloaks=8A he alone could see the full strangeness of the

This always bothered me. How could crouch see through the cloak as his
magic eye was in fact part of the illusion of the polyjuice potion.

You're wrong, Crouch wore the eye (and leg) belonging to the real Moody.

No kidding. Think about it realistically: the PP uses a part of
someone's body to effect the transformation. Logically, this is to
transform your body into a replica of their body, in its current form
(or it would be useless, no?). So, things like a wooden leg or a glass
eye wouldn't appear with the use of the PP. A stump of a leg and an
empty eye socket would.

Indeed Aaron, but Phil thought otherwise.

I know. I was bolstering your argument by providing the rationale JKR
must have used that led to the facts you stated.

Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

-Aaron

[Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen]

Post by Aaron

Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

Post by Aaron

Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

Post by Phil Da Lick!

Post by Green-Eyed Chris
Harrys heart gave a horrible jolt. Moody could see through
Invisibility Cloaks=8A he alone could see the full strangeness of

This always bothered me. How could crouch see through the cloak as
his magic eye was in fact part of the illusion of the polyjuice
potion.

You're wrong, Crouch wore the eye (and leg) belonging to the real Moody.

No kidding. Think about it realistically: the PP uses a part of
someone's body to effect the transformation. Logically, this is to
transform your body into a replica of their body, in its current form
(or it would be useless, no?). So, things like a wooden leg or a glass
eye wouldn't appear with the use of the PP. A stump of a leg and an
empty eye socket would.

Indeed Aaron, but Phil thought otherwise.

I know. I was bolstering your argument by providing the rationale JKR
must have used that led to the facts you stated.

Okay, thanks Aaron.


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

[Aaron]

Post by Gerrit Vicin
Hello!
At some points we, as readers, are left under the impression that
Dumbledore is able to see through an invisibility cloak.
I remember a scene from one of the movies (I don't know which right now)
when Harry hides under his invisibility cloak eavesdropping on a
converstaion between Snape and, I think, another teacher. Suddenly Snape
gropes in Harry's direction as though he feels someone or something in
his proximity.

It's true, this wasn't in the books. Remember, however, that JKR said
the movies foreshadow events moreso than the books (consider the
awkward Ron-Hermione moments in POA). This may be a case of the
foreshadowing of Snape's talent at legilimency.

Jane.

-Aaron

[A.G.McDowell]

Post by Aaron

Post by Gerrit Vicin
Hello!
At some points we, as readers, are left under the impression that
Dumbledore is able to see through an invisibility cloak.
I remember a scene from one of the movies (I don't know which right now)
when Harry hides under his invisibility cloak eavesdropping on a
converstaion between Snape and, I think, another teacher. Suddenly Snape
gropes in Harry's direction as though he feels someone or something in
his proximity.

It's true, this wasn't in the books. Remember, however, that JKR said
the movies foreshadow events moreso than the books (consider the
awkward Ron-Hermione moments in POA). This may be a case of the
foreshadowing of Snape's talent at legilimency.

Jane.

-Aaron

Hints of Legilimency? here's a quote from CoS: "The Whomping Willow"

Ron gulped. This wasn't the first time Snape had given Harry the
impression of being able to read minds. But a moment later he
understood, as Snape unrolled today's issue of the Evening Prophet.

Or GoF: "Padfoot Returns"
'Don't lie to me,' Snape hissed, his fathomless black eyes boring into
Harry's. 'Boomslang skin. Gillyweed. Both come from my private stores,
and I know who stole them.'

(he's wrong, of course, but I think it's still a hint).

[Richard Eney]

<snip>

Post by Jane Grey

Post by Gerrit Vicin
That both Dumbledore and Snape are good at Legilimency led me (perhaps
for want of something else to think about) to the idea that it is
actually Legilimency that enables a Witch or Wizard to see, or better
sense someone hiding under an invisibility cloak.

<snip>

Post by Jane Grey
whilst they are under cloak in Hagrid's, just before
Fudge comes to remove AD and imprison Hagrid;

<snip>

Post by Jane Grey
For a second harry was almost sure that Dumbledore eye's flicked
towards the corner where he and ron stood hidden.
--------------
it gives us the distinct impression that AD could see through
invisibililty cloaks. But I don't know about your Legilimency though
because my impression from OftP was that the wizard attempting
Legilimency needs visual contact of the subject before he can read his
minds. Your theory suggests to me that they can hear thoughts randomly
rather than only when they attempt Legilimens on a subject of choice.
interesting idea tho.

In the beginning of GoF, Voldemort could tell that Frank was in the
hallway behind a closed door and what Frank was thinking. I'm pretty
sure that Voldemort wasn't even facing the hallway.

=Tamar

[Kish]

Post by Richard Eney
In the beginning of GoF, Voldemort could tell that Frank was in the
hallway behind a closed door and what Frank was thinking.

After Nagini crawled right past Frank and told Voldemort he was there,
that is.

[Richard Eney]

Post by Kish

Post by Richard Eney
In the beginning of GoF, Voldemort could tell that Frank was in the
hallway behind a closed door and what Frank was thinking.

After Nagini crawled right past Frank and told Voldemort he was there,
that is.

I sit corrected on that point, but when Frank was in the room, Voldemort
could tell when Frank was lying even while they were separated by the
back of an armchair and Voldemort was facing away from Frank.

=Tamar

[Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen]

Post by Richard Eney

Post by Jane Grey

Post by Gerrit Vicin
That both Dumbledore and Snape are good at Legilimency led me (perhaps
for want of something else to think about) to the idea that it is
actually Legilimency that enables a Witch or Wizard to see, or better
sense someone hiding under an invisibility cloak.

whilst they are under cloak in Hagrid's, just before
Fudge comes to remove AD and imprison Hagrid;
For a second harry was almost sure that Dumbledore eye's flicked
towards the corner where he and ron stood hidden.
it gives us the distinct impression that AD could see through
invisibililty cloaks. But I don't know about your Legilimency though
because my impression from OftP was that the wizard attempting
Legilimency needs visual contact of the subject before he can read his
minds. Your theory suggests to me that they can hear thoughts randomly
rather than only when they attempt Legilimens on a subject of choice.
interesting idea tho.

In the beginning of GoF, Voldemort could tell that Frank was in the
hallway behind a closed door and what Frank was thinking. I'm pretty
sure that Voldemort wasn't even facing the hallway.

And at the Sorting Feast, Voldemort looked at Harry through the turban?


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

[BriD]

Post by Gerrit Vicin
Hello!
At some points we, as readers, are left under the impression that
Dumbledore is able to see through an invisibility cloak.
I remember a scene from one of the movies (I don't know which right now)
when Harry hides under his invisibility cloak eavesdropping on a
converstaion between Snape and, I think, another teacher. Suddenly Snape
gropes in Harry's direction as though he feels someone or something in
his proximity.
I don't know whether this scene is described the same way in the book
(though I've read all the books).
That both Dumbledore and Snape are good at Legilimency led me (perhaps
for want of something else to think about) to the idea that it is
actually Legilimency that enables a Witch or Wizard to see, or better
sense someone hiding under an invisibility cloak.
Just a thought, though I don't know of what significance this might be.
What do you think?
gerriT

Also, how does Harry see through it from the inside? And if he put it
on inside out would everyone be able to see him and he wouldn't be able
to see out? :-)

BriD

[Richard Eney]

Post by BriD

Post by Gerrit Vicin
At some points we, as readers, are left under the impression that
Dumbledore is able to see through an invisibility cloak.

<snip>

Post by BriD

Post by Gerrit Vicin
That both Dumbledore and Snape are good at Legilimency led me (perhaps
for want of something else to think about) to the idea that it is
actually Legilimency that enables a Witch or Wizard to see, or better
sense someone hiding under an invisibility cloak.

Also, how does Harry see through it from the inside? And if he put it
on inside out would everyone be able to see him and he wouldn't be able
to see out? :-)

The cloak is invisible when somebody is wearing it. It is visible
when empty. It's an example of a spell that only takes effect when
somebody uses the object. (compare the hypothesis about the horcruxes)

When Harry is wearing the cloak, it too is invisible - so theoretically,
since everybody else sees through the entire area covered as though nothing
were in that spot, he can see through it too.

There is no problem with the idea that if Harry is totally nonreflective
to light, the retinas of his eyes don't stop light either and he would be
blind, because technically it isn't Harry who is invisible, it's the cloak
that makes everything under it invisible to the outsider.

If he put it on inside out, it would work anyway - it isn't lined with
anything else, so it's just a single layer of the magical material,
cloth woven of the hair of a beast that can turn invisible itself.
The weaving didn't remove its intrinsic ability, so the exact position
of the hairs made into thread is not significant either.

=Tamar

[Gerrit Vicin]

Richard Eney wrote:
[...]

Post by Richard Eney
There is no problem with the idea that if Harry is totally nonreflective
to light, the retinas of his eyes don't stop light either and he would be
blind, because technically it isn't Harry who is invisible, it's the cloak
that makes everything under it invisible to the outsider.

Actually I had this idea of Harry being blind under the cloak, too. But
I think there is no need to look at it this way. After all it's magic!

[...]

Post by Richard Eney
=Tamar

gerriT - gerriT

[Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen]

Post by Richard Eney

Post by BriD
Also, how does Harry see through it from the inside? And if he put it
on inside out would everyone be able to see him and he wouldn't be able
to see out? :-)

The cloak is invisible when somebody is wearing it. It is visible
when empty. It's an example of a spell that only takes effect when
somebody uses the object. (compare the hypothesis about the horcruxes)
When Harry is wearing the cloak, it too is invisible - so theoretically,
since everybody else sees through the entire area covered as though nothing
were in that spot, he can see through it too.
There is no problem with the idea that if Harry is totally nonreflective
to light, the retinas of his eyes don't stop light either and he would be
blind, because technically it isn't Harry who is invisible, it's the cloak
that makes everything under it invisible to the outsider.
If he put it on inside out, it would work anyway - it isn't lined with
anything else, so it's just a single layer of the magical material,
cloth woven of the hair of a beast that can turn invisible itself.
The weaving didn't remove its intrinsic ability, so the exact position
of the hairs made into thread is not significant either.

Would wrapping 'Advanced Potion-Making' in the Cloak hide it from Snape?


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

[Richard Eney]

<snip>

Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

Post by Richard Eney
The cloak is invisible when somebody is wearing it. It is visible
when empty. It's an example of a spell that only takes effect when
somebody uses the object. (compare the hypothesis about the horcruxes)
When Harry is wearing the cloak, it too is invisible - so theoretically,
since everybody else sees through the entire area covered as though
nothing were in that spot, he can see through it too.

<snip>

Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

Post by Richard Eney
If he put it on inside out, it would work anyway - it isn't lined with
anything else, so it's just a single layer of the magical material,
cloth woven of the hair of a beast that can turn invisible itself.
The weaving didn't remove its intrinsic ability, so the exact position
of the hairs made into thread is not significant either.

Would wrapping 'Advanced Potion-Making' in the Cloak hide it from Snape?

I don't think so. The cloak is only invisible when it is being worn by
a living entity. A book doesn't count, not even the magic ones that
scream if read by unauthorized students. I'm not so sure about the Monster
Book of Monsters. :-)

=Tamar

[Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen]

Post by Richard Eney

Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

Post by Richard Eney
The cloak is invisible when somebody is wearing it. It is visible
when empty. It's an example of a spell that only takes effect when
somebody uses the object. (compare the hypothesis about the horcruxes)
When Harry is wearing the cloak, it too is invisible - so
theoretically, since everybody else sees through the entire area
covered as though nothing were in that spot, he can see through it
too. <snip> If he put it on inside out, it would work anyway - it
isn't lined with anything else, so it's just a single layer of the
magical material, cloth woven of the hair of a beast that can turn
invisible itself. The weaving didn't remove its intrinsic ability, so
the exact position of the hairs made into thread is not significant
either.

Would wrapping 'Advanced Potion-Making' in the Cloak hide it from Snape?

I don't think so. The cloak is only invisible when it is being worn by
a living entity. A book doesn't count, not even the magic ones that
scream if read by unauthorized students. I'm not so sure about the
Monster Book of Monsters. :-)

What if Harry wrapped the Cloak round the book & a spider in a jar?


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

[Richard Eney]

Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

Post by Richard Eney

Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

Post by Richard Eney
The cloak is invisible when somebody is wearing it. It is visible
when empty. It's an example of a spell that only takes effect when
somebody uses the object. (compare the hypothesis about the horcruxes)
When Harry is wearing the cloak, it too is invisible - so
theoretically, since everybody else sees through the entire area
covered as though nothing were in that spot, he can see through it
too. <snip> If he put it on inside out, it would work anyway - it
isn't lined with anything else, so it's just a single layer of the
magical material, cloth woven of the hair of a beast that can turn
invisible itself. The weaving didn't remove its intrinsic ability, so
the exact position of the hairs made into thread is not significant
either.

Would wrapping 'Advanced Potion-Making' in the Cloak hide it from Snape?

I don't think so. The cloak is only invisible when it is being worn by
a living entity. A book doesn't count, not even the magic ones that
scream if read by unauthorized students. I'm not so sure about the
Monster Book of Monsters. :-)

What if Harry wrapped the Cloak round the book & a spider in a jar?

It would depend on whether the spells on the cloak require that the wearer
be human, humanoid, intelligent, or just living, and on whether the jar
had air holes in it.

=Tamar

[Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen]

Post by Richard Eney

Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

Post by Richard Eney

Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

The cloak is invisible when somebody is wearing it. It is visible
when empty. It's an example of a spell that only takes effect when
somebody uses the object. (compare the hypothesis about the horcruxes)
When Harry is wearing the cloak, it too is invisible - so
theoretically, since everybody else sees through the entire area
covered as though nothing were in that spot, he can see through it
too. <snip> If he put it on inside out, it would work anyway - it
isn't lined with anything else, so it's just a single layer of the
magical material, cloth woven of the hair of a beast that can turn
invisible itself. The weaving didn't remove its intrinsic ability, so
the exact position of the hairs made into thread is not significant
either.

Would wrapping 'Advanced Potion-Making' in the Cloak hide it from Snape?

I don't think so. The cloak is only invisible when it is being worn by
a living entity. A book doesn't count, not even the magic ones that
scream if read by unauthorized students. I'm not so sure about the
Monster Book of Monsters. :-)

What if Harry wrapped the Cloak round the book & a spider in a jar?

It would depend on whether the spells on the cloak require that the wearer
be human, humanoid, intelligent, or just living, and on whether the jar
had air holes in it.

So more than merely a living entity then. The people who make the cloaks
must have had a hard time working out all the minutiae for their product,
(consider the difficulty politicians have in writing laws), especially
since the invisibility function comes gratis from the Demiguise.


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

[Richard Eney]

Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

Post by Richard Eney

Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

Post by Richard Eney

Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

The cloak is invisible when somebody is wearing it. It is visible
when empty.

<snip>

Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

Post by Richard Eney

Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

Post by Richard Eney

Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

isn't lined with anything else, so it's just a single layer of the
magical material, cloth woven of the hair of a beast that can turn
invisible itself. The weaving didn't remove its intrinsic ability, so
the exact position of the hairs made into thread is not significant
either.

Would wrapping 'Advanced Potion-Making' in the Cloak hide it from Snape?

I don't think so. The cloak is only invisible when it is being worn by
a living entity. A book doesn't count, not even the magic ones that
scream if read by unauthorized students. I'm not so sure about the
Monster Book of Monsters. :-)

What if Harry wrapped the Cloak round the book & a spider in a jar?

It would depend on whether the spells on the cloak require that the wearer
be human, humanoid, intelligent, or just living, and on whether the jar
had air holes in it.

So more than merely a living entity then. The people who make the cloaks
must have had a hard time working out all the minutiae for their product,
(consider the difficulty politicians have in writing laws), especially
since the invisibility function comes gratis from the Demiguise.

It's not certain. We know the cloak is visible when it isn't being worn.
We know it's made of demiguise hair and that demiguise hair keeps the
demiguise invisible while it's alive, so presumably the basic material
doesn't require anything other than "living creature", or perhaps "living
creature that is warm- or cold-blooded like the demiguise". So maybe a
spider wouldn't be similar enough, but a mouse would be sufficient.

I speculate that spells are added to keep the cloak visible even if a
mouse or cat crawls underneath it, so the owner can find it easily.
There's a distance factor, or a cloak anywhere would be invisible
because it would be over ants or worms in the earth or fish in the
water.

It's a tricky sort of thing, and catching the demiguise in the first
place may not be the hardest part of it.

=Tamar

[Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen]

Post by Richard Eney

Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

Post by Richard Eney

Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

The cloak is invisible when somebody is wearing it. It is visible
when empty. <snip> isn't lined with anything else, so it's just a
single layer of the magical material, cloth woven of the hair of a
beast that can turn invisible itself. The weaving didn't remove
its intrinsic ability, so the exact position of the hairs made
into thread is not significant either.

Would wrapping 'Advanced Potion-Making' in the Cloak hide it from Snape?

I don't think so. The cloak is only invisible when it is being worn
by a living entity. A book doesn't count, not even the magic ones
that scream if read by unauthorized students. I'm not so sure about
the Monster Book of Monsters. :-)

What if Harry wrapped the Cloak round the book & a spider in a jar?

It would depend on whether the spells on the cloak require that the
wearer be human, humanoid, intelligent, or just living, and on whether
the jar had air holes in it.

So more than merely a living entity then. The people who make the cloaks
must have had a hard time working out all the minutiae for their product,
(consider the difficulty politicians have in writing laws), especially
since the invisibility function comes gratis from the Demiguise.

It's not certain. We know the cloak is visible when it isn't being worn.

Good point!

Post by Richard Eney
We know it's made of demiguise hair and that demiguise hair keeps the
demiguise invisible while it's alive, so presumably the basic material
doesn't require anything other than "living creature", or perhaps "living
creature that is warm- or cold-blooded like the demiguise". So maybe a
spider wouldn't be similar enough, but a mouse would be sufficient.

Yeah.

Post by Richard Eney
I speculate that spells are added to keep the cloak visible even if a
mouse or cat crawls underneath it, so the owner can find it easily.
There's a distance factor, or a cloak anywhere would be invisible
because it would be over ants or worms in the earth or fish in the
water.

Ah, but I've always specified 'wrapped in' rather than merely being
'over'. The magic would work by transferring the light falling on the
cloak to the opposite surface, then carrying on as if uninterrupted.

Post by Richard Eney
It's a tricky sort of thing, and catching the demiguise in the first
place may not be the hardest part of it.

Can we assume the Demiguise is shorn of its hair, not skinned?


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

[Richard Eney]

<snip>

Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

Post by Richard Eney

single layer of the magical material, cloth woven of the hair of a
beast that can turn invisible itself. The weaving didn't remove
its intrinsic ability, so the exact position of the hairs made
into thread is not significant either.

<snip>

Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

Post by Richard Eney
It's not certain. We know the cloak is visible when it isn't being worn.

Good point!

Post by Richard Eney
We know it's made of demiguise hair and that demiguise hair keeps the
demiguise invisible while it's alive, so presumably the basic material
doesn't require anything other than "living creature", or perhaps "living
creature that is warm- or cold-blooded like the demiguise". So maybe a
spider wouldn't be similar enough, but a mouse would be sufficient.

Yeah.

Post by Richard Eney
I speculate that spells are added to keep the cloak visible even if a
mouse or cat crawls underneath it, so the owner can find it easily.
There's a distance factor, or a cloak anywhere would be invisible
because it would be over ants or worms in the earth or fish in the
water.

Ah, but I've always specified 'wrapped in' rather than merely being
'over'. The magic would work by transferring the light falling on the
cloak to the opposite surface, then carrying on as if uninterrupted.

Post by Richard Eney
It's a tricky sort of thing, and catching the demiguise in the first
place may not be the hardest part of it.

Can we assume the Demiguise is shorn of its hair, not skinned?

FBAWTFT is inconclusive; it refers to "wizards skilled in its _capture_"
but then it refers to demiguise "pelts" being valuable; as I understand
it, the pelt is the skin with the hair on. The hair without the skin
would be either "hair" or "fleece". JKR may have decided to use "pelt"
to mean just the hair, which I would actually prefer, since the poor
creature is herbivorous, doleful, and "something like a graceful ape".

Since I think I remember seeing the words "a graceful ape" in
descriptions of early protohumans, and the silvery hair reminds me
of Dumbledore's hair and beard, I'd really rather not have demiguises
killed for their skins.

There may be a further hint since the booklet also says that the eyes
are, as often as not, covered by the hair - which could imply that
the eyes are visible just after shearing.

=Tamar

[Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen]

Post by Richard Eney

Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Can we assume the Demiguise is shorn of its hair, not skinned?

FBAWTFT is inconclusive; it refers to "wizards skilled in its _capture_"
but then it refers to demiguise "pelts" being valuable; as I understand
it, the pelt is the skin with the hair on. The hair without the skin
would be either "hair" or "fleece". JKR may have decided to use "pelt"
to mean just the hair, which I would actually prefer, since the poor
creature is herbivorous, doleful, and "something like a graceful ape".
Since I think I remember seeing the words "a graceful ape" in
descriptions of early protohumans, and the silvery hair reminds me
of Dumbledore's hair and beard, I'd really rather not have demiguises
killed for their skins.
There may be a further hint since the booklet also says that the eyes
are, as often as not, covered by the hair - which could imply that
the eyes are visible just after shearing.

Well, a pelt does include the skin; but I prefer your version, Tamar.


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

[2***@wongfaye.com]

Can we assume the Demiguise is shorn of its hair, not skinned?

i would hope otherwise how would harry see through the cload if it was
a leathry hide
it seems like a thin whispy veil when on but while puttin on it has the
mass of a cape

aslo the move shows a little bit of predator type shimmer distortion

[Toon]

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 00:33:01 GMT, Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day

Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

Post by Richard Eney

Post by BriD
Also, how does Harry see through it from the inside? And if he put it
on inside out would everyone be able to see him and he wouldn't be able
to see out? :-)

The cloak is invisible when somebody is wearing it. It is visible
when empty. It's an example of a spell that only takes effect when
somebody uses the object. (compare the hypothesis about the horcruxes)
When Harry is wearing the cloak, it too is invisible - so theoretically,
since everybody else sees through the entire area covered as though nothing
were in that spot, he can see through it too.
There is no problem with the idea that if Harry is totally nonreflective
to light, the retinas of his eyes don't stop light either and he would be
blind, because technically it isn't Harry who is invisible, it's the cloak
that makes everything under it invisible to the outsider.
If he put it on inside out, it would work anyway - it isn't lined with
anything else, so it's just a single layer of the magical material,
cloth woven of the hair of a beast that can turn invisible itself.
The weaving didn't remove its intrinsic ability, so the exact position
of the hairs made into thread is not significant either.

Would wrapping 'Advanced Potion-Making' in the Cloak hide it from Snape?
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

Yup. Unless he trips on it. Or see Harry carrying something that
isn't there. A quick legils would reveal all.

[Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen]

Post by Toon

Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Would wrapping 'Advanced Potion-Making' in the Cloak hide it from Snape?

Yup. Unless he trips on it. Or see Harry carrying something that
isn't there. A quick legils would reveal all.

It would indeed, but I'm inquiring about properties of the Cloak here.


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen

[Toon]

Post by Richard Eney

Post by BriD

Post by Gerrit Vicin
At some points we, as readers, are left under the impression that
Dumbledore is able to see through an invisibility cloak.

<snip>

Post by BriD

Post by Gerrit Vicin
That both Dumbledore and Snape are good at Legilimency led me (perhaps
for want of something else to think about) to the idea that it is
actually Legilimency that enables a Witch or Wizard to see, or better
sense someone hiding under an invisibility cloak.

Also, how does Harry see through it from the inside? And if he put it
on inside out would everyone be able to see him and he wouldn't be able
to see out? :-)

The cloak is invisible when somebody is wearing it. It is visible
when empty. It's an example of a spell that only takes effect when
somebody uses the object. (compare the hypothesis about the horcruxes)
When Harry is wearing the cloak, it too is invisible - so theoretically,
since everybody else sees through the entire area covered as though nothing
were in that spot, he can see through it too.
There is no problem with the idea that if Harry is totally nonreflective
to light, the retinas of his eyes don't stop light either and he would be
blind, because technically it isn't Harry who is invisible, it's the cloak
that makes everything under it invisible to the outsider.
If he put it on inside out, it would work anyway - it isn't lined with
anything else, so it's just a single layer of the magical material,
cloth woven of the hair of a beast that can turn invisible itself.
The weaving didn't remove its intrinsic ability, so the exact position
of the hairs made into thread is not significant either.
=Tamar

Maybe the magic makes it work like a two way mirror. We can't see it
(or anything under it), but what's under can still see us.

[Richard Eney]

<snip>

Post by Toon

Post by Richard Eney
When Harry is wearing the cloak, it too is invisible - so theoretically,
since everybody else sees through the entire area covered as though nothing
were in that spot, he can see through it too.

<snip>

Post by Toon

Post by Richard Eney
If he put it on inside out, it would work anyway - it isn't lined with
anything else, so it's just a single layer of the magical material,
cloth woven of the hair of a beast that can turn invisible itself.
The weaving didn't remove its intrinsic ability, so the exact position
of the hairs made into thread is not significant either.
=Tamar

Maybe the magic makes it work like a two way mirror. We can't see it
(or anything under it), but what's under can still see us.

Exactly.

=Tamar

[ashy0802]

Post by Gerrit Vicin
Hello!
At some points we, as readers, are left under the impression that
Dumbledore is able to see through an invisibility cloak.
I remember a scene from one of the movies (I don't know which right now)
when Harry hides under his invisibility cloak eavesdropping on a
converstaion between Snape and, I think, another teacher. Suddenly Snape
gropes in Harry's direction as though he feels someone or something in
his proximity.

In the movie it was because Harry breathing really hard through his
mouth.

Post by Gerrit Vicin
I don't know whether this scene is described the same way in the book
(though I've read all the books).
That both Dumbledore and Snape are good at Legilimency led me (perhaps
for want of something else to think about) to the idea that it is
actually Legilimency that enables a Witch or Wizard to see, or better
sense someone hiding under an invisibility cloak.

Snape also said Legilimency requires eye contact (except in the case of
LV and Harry). DD may be able to see through invisibility cloaks or it
may be his own ability to travel around the castle unseen without the
use of cloak--that's in PS/SS.

Post by Gerrit Vicin
Just a thought, though I don't know of what significance this might be.
What do you think?
gerriT

[Toon]

Post by Gerrit Vicin
Hello!
At some points we, as readers, are left under the impression that
Dumbledore is able to see through an invisibility cloak.
I remember a scene from one of the movies (I don't know which right now)
when Harry hides under his invisibility cloak eavesdropping on a
converstaion between Snape and, I think, another teacher. Suddenly Snape
gropes in Harry's direction as though he feels someone or something in
his proximity.
I don't know whether this scene is described the same way in the book
(though I've read all the books).
That both Dumbledore and Snape are good at Legilimency led me (perhaps
for want of something else to think about) to the idea that it is
actually Legilimency that enables a Witch or Wizard to see, or better
sense someone hiding under an invisibility cloak.
Just a thought, though I don't know of what significance this might be.
What do you think?
gerriT

Makes sense if you suspect someone invisible. But what first tips
them off? OK, Dd knew what Harry was up to, but could he be so sure
the trio were hiding in Hagrid's Hut as Fudge came to escort him to
Azakaban for not being the Heir Of Slytherin?

[2***@wongfaye.com]

an invisiblity cloak only renders the person invisible

they can still be heard,smelled and possibly he saw an aura or heard a
differerent echo like passive sonar

[Richard Eney]

Post by 2***@wongfaye.com
an invisiblity cloak only renders the person invisible
they can still be heard, smelled and possibly he saw an aura or heard
a different echo like passive sonar

The aura is part of the person, so I don't think he saw that. But
the sonar effect could work; since someone could bump into a person
wearing an invisibility cloak, it makes sense that sound waves would
bounce off them.

=Tamar

[Mark Evans]

Post by 2***@wongfaye.com
an invisiblity cloak only renders the person invisible
they can still be heard,smelled and possibly he saw an aura or heard a
differerent echo like passive sonar

As well as tracked by the magic used in the Marauder's map.