Discussion:
what's the obsession with wandless magic?
(too old to reply)
Carlotta
2005-07-24 18:24:32 UTC
Permalink
Sorry, folks, but I don't get it. Could somebody enlighten me, please?
Why would it matter wether Harry/Dumbledore can do magic without a
wand?
Both of them seem to use their wands on a regular basis.
Why would they if they didn't really need them?

Wandless magic wasn't a big issue in books one through six - why would
it suddelny become important in book seven?
Merlins beard - even Voldermort uses a wand...
Please?
Persival
2005-07-24 19:50:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlotta
Sorry, folks, but I don't get it. Could somebody enlighten me, please?
Why would it matter wether Harry/Dumbledore can do magic without a
wand?
Both of them seem to use their wands on a regular basis.
Why would they if they didn't really need them?
Wandless magic wasn't a big issue in books one through six - why would
it suddelny become important in book seven?
Merlins beard - even Voldermort uses a wand...
Please?
I think it will come up in the next book.There probably was a spell used
sometime in the series that we were not privy to becouse it was neither
spoken nor was a wand used.
Also the reson everybody uses a wand is becouse its easy.I think its like
the difference between a bicycle and a unicycle not everyone can ride a
unicycle it takes more concitration and will to ride one than a bicicle.
Tim Peters
2005-07-24 20:21:08 UTC
Permalink
[Carlotta]
Post by Carlotta
Sorry, folks, but I don't get it. Could somebody enlighten me, please?
Why would it matter wether Harry/Dumbledore can do magic without a
wand?
...
S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

B
U
T

N
O
T

A

L
O
T

It's speculation about how helpless Dumbledore was (or wasn't ...) after
losing his wand on the Astronomy Tower. Like, could he have stopped Draco
from killing him, if the latter had tried? Could he have stopped Snape? I
think there was also some confusion mixed in to this, like a mistaken belief
that Dumbledore put the Body-Bind curse on Harry after losing his wand.
a***@sjc.edu
2005-07-24 22:44:25 UTC
Permalink
I'm sure she introduced wandless spells for a reason. It could be
Dumbledore did use one at the last (maybe to create his patronus so it
would go on?)

Ann
Vampyre
2005-07-25 05:54:31 UTC
Permalink
Harry & Voldemort's wands both have the same phoenix feather, so they
cancel each other out. (Can't remember the actual name for what happend
but you get the idea )
So it looks like Harry will need to go without his wand in order to
defeat Voldemort during Book 7...
gjw
2005-07-25 06:56:27 UTC
Permalink
On 24 Jul 2005 22:54:31 -0700, "Vampyre"
Post by Vampyre
Harry & Voldemort's wands both have the same phoenix feather, so they
cancel each other out. (Can't remember the actual name for what happend
but you get the idea )
So it looks like Harry will need to go without his wand in order to
defeat Voldemort during Book 7...
You forgot that in HBP, we learn that the wandmaker, Mr. Ollivander,
is suddenly missing. No doubt, Voldemort took him and has him busy
making a new wand - one that won't backfire on him when he duels with
Harry.
Vampyre
2005-07-25 07:02:20 UTC
Permalink
But if 'the wand chooses the wizard' it may not be possible for
Ollivander to make a wand for a specific wizard.
gjw
2005-07-26 04:49:55 UTC
Permalink
On 25 Jul 2005 00:02:20 -0700, "Vampyre"
Post by Vampyre
But if 'the wand chooses the wizard' it may not be possible for
Ollivander to make a wand for a specific wizard.
Ollivander will be able to make Voldemort a workable wand, since we
have seen wizards using other wizards' wands. However, the question is
whether the new wand will be as effective as his old one, since (as
you allude to), it might not be a perfect fit for LV.
Carlotta
2005-07-25 09:58:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@sjc.edu
I'm sure she introduced wandless spells for a reason. It could be
Dumbledore did use one at the last (maybe to create his patronus so it
would go on?)
Please help me out: which is a wandless spell?

~Carlotta
Sky_rider
2005-07-25 10:36:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlotta
Post by a***@sjc.edu
I'm sure she introduced wandless spells for a reason. It could be
Dumbledore did use one at the last (maybe to create his patronus so it
would go on?)
Please help me out: which is a wandless spell?
Some magic a wizard/witch can do without having to use a wand as the
focus for the magical power.
--
Skyrider

Visit Australian Opinion...where comment counts!
http://www.australianopinion.com
Faron
2005-07-28 00:21:43 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:36:52 GMT, in message
Post by Sky_rider
Post by Carlotta
Post by a***@sjc.edu
I'm sure she introduced wandless spells for a reason. It could be
Dumbledore did use one at the last (maybe to create his patronus so it
would go on?)
Please help me out: which is a wandless spell?
Some magic a wizard/witch can do without having to use a wand as the
focus for the magical power.
Found this on Mugglenet...

"You can do unfocused and uncontrolled magic without a wand (like when
Harry blows up Aunt Marge), but to do really good spells you need a
wand."
http://www.mugglenet.com/books/bbcchat1.shtml
--
Faron
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
2005-07-28 09:38:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Faron
Found this on Mugglenet...
"You can do unfocused and uncontrolled magic without a wand (like when
Harry blows up Aunt Marge), but to do really good spells you need a
wand."
Indeed, but what constitutes a "really good spell" - Wingardium Leviosa?
Alohomora? Expelliarmus? Imperio? Expecto Patronum? Portus? Horcrucia?

We've seen focused controlled conjuring & transfiguration without a
wand; and although 4th-year Harry found Accio a bit tricky, this must
be the first wandless spell they teach trainees at Auror College.


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
DDsman
2005-07-25 10:32:27 UTC
Permalink
wandless magic has endless possibilities, think of the advantage you would
have over your opponent if you could do magic without raising a wand,
without saying a word.
Carlotta
2005-07-25 10:51:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sky_rider
Some magic a wizard/witch can do without having to use a wand as the
focus for the magical power.
I'm really at a loss - where is that in the books?
Post by Sky_rider
wandless magic has endless possibilities, think of the advantage you would
have over your opponent if you could do magic without raising a wand,
without saying a word.
Yes - but so far neither Harry nor Dumbledore nor Voldemort have done
it. (Apart from the 'lumos'-incident, which concerned only the (nearby)
wand and is something completely different from - say casting an
Unforgivable Curse without a wand).

It didn't happen so far - why should it be a big issue in #7?

~Carlotta
Sky_rider
2005-07-25 11:05:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlotta
Post by Sky_rider
Some magic a wizard/witch can do without having to use a wand as the
focus for the magical power.
I'm really at a loss - where is that in the books?
The only one we know without searching is Harry finding his wand in
the alley when he and Dudders were attacked by dementors. Harry
dropped his wand them shouted Lumos and the wand lit up...
Post by Carlotta
Post by Sky_rider
wandless magic has endless possibilities, think of the advantage you would
have over your opponent if you could do magic without raising a wand,
without saying a word.
Yes - but so far neither Harry nor Dumbledore nor Voldemort have done
it. (Apart from the 'lumos'-incident, which concerned only the (nearby)
wand and is something completely different from - say casting an
Unforgivable Curse without a wand).
It didn't happen so far - why should it be a big issue in #7?
*if* it can be done it would gives and attacker/defender an 'edge'...
if it can be done it might be crucial for Harry's survival!
--
Skyrider

Visit Australian Opinion...where comment counts!
http://www.australianopinion.com
Carlotta
2005-07-25 11:25:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sky_rider
*if* it can be done it would gives and attacker/defender an 'edge'...
if it can be done it might be crucial for Harry's survival!
But if the only basis for this theory is the 'lumos'-scene it's pretty
wild and far-fetched, isn't it?

I could just as well say: "Firenze will unite with the other centaurs
and they will join the fight and save Harry.
They are mighty magical creatures and Firenze has helped Harry before.
Oh - the possibilities! ;)

So - I'm still not satisfied with the answers I got.

As long as the (questionable) 'lumos'scene is all you've got to support
the "wandless-magic-theory" I remain absolutely unconvinced.

~Carlotta
Sky_rider
2005-07-25 11:50:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlotta
Post by Sky_rider
*if* it can be done it would gives and attacker/defender an 'edge'...
if it can be done it might be crucial for Harry's survival!
But if the only basis for this theory is the 'lumos'-scene it's pretty
wild and far-fetched, isn't it?
well yes... but so are most of the theories in here... but we can only
go on the information to hand and attempt to extrapolate to new
circumstances that might appear in the books...
Post by Carlotta
I could just as well say: "Firenze will unite with the other centaurs
and they will join the fight and save Harry.
They are mighty magical creatures and Firenze has helped Harry before.
Oh - the possibilities! ;)
Or Firenze will 'unite' with Trelawney despite their differences and
ride off to battle on the side of good... :)

Who knows really until the next book comes out?

All we can do is make 'educated guesses' based on pervious experience
and hope for internal consistency to give us a few ideas.
Post by Carlotta
So - I'm still not satisfied with the answers I got.
Ok :)
Post by Carlotta
As long as the (questionable) 'lumos'scene is all you've got to support
the "wandless-magic-theory" I remain absolutely unconvinced.
It's all supposition until 2006 anyway.
--
Skyrider

Visit Australian Opinion...where comment counts!
http://www.australianopinion.com
Philip Lewis
2005-07-25 12:32:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlotta
But if the only basis for this theory is the 'lumos'-scene it's pretty
wild and far-fetched, isn't it?
What about all of Tom's command word magic done in the orphanage?
Quite different from much of harry's wandless magic (zoo Glass
disappearing, magical jumps (perhaps apperation?), blowing up the
aunt, opening/closing doors, transfiguring his hair, etc) as it's
directed and intentional.

I'm very suprised that Voldemort uses a wand at all.
I would think that it would be something that he would have to trust,
and it's very clear that his personality is predisposed to trust
no-one and no-thing. Perhaps he's just being lazy.
Post by Carlotta
I could just as well say: "Firenze will unite with the other centaurs
and they will join the fight and save Harry.
Firenze is outcast from the other centaurs... and so a major hurtle
has to be jumped before that can happen. Wandless magic has been
shown on a number of occations.

If you didn't need a wand or to speak, aside from knocking you out or
keeping you stupified, there is very little that could keep you captured.
--
be safe.
flip
Ich habe keine Ahnung was das bedeutet, oder vielleicht doch?
Remove origin of the word spam from address to reply (leave "+")
Tim Peters
2005-07-25 15:03:25 UTC
Permalink
...

[Sky_rider, on wandless magic]
Post by Carlotta
Post by Sky_rider
*if* it can be done it would gives and attacker/defender an 'edge'...
if it can be done it might be crucial for Harry's survival!
[Carlotta]
Post by Carlotta
But if the only basis for this theory is the 'lumos'-scene it's pretty
wild and far-fetched, isn't it?
Ya, except this is a series in which a pet rat seemingly introduced for
comic relief, and to underline the Weasley's finanical woes, turned out
after 2 3/4s books to be a wizard who played a key role in Harry's past, and
may play another in Harry's future. "Wild and far-fetched" is common enough
here to make it hard to rule out anything.
Post by Carlotta
I could just as well say: "Firenze will unite with the other centaurs
and they will join the fight and save Harry.
They are mighty magical creatures and Firenze has helped Harry before.
Oh - the possibilities! ;)
That's the spirit! Tame, though, and there's a lot of evidence in the book
to support it -- really good theories are plain nuts <wink>. For example,
the real reason Dobby wears all those hats is to hide that Lord Voldemort is
growing out of the back of his head -- the same reason Professor Quirrel
wore a turban. I just made that one up (and if anyone is actually pushing
that theory, I both apologize and urge them to seek help <wink>), but there
are a lot of theories just as silly.
Post by Carlotta
So - I'm still not satisfied with the answers I got.
As long as the (questionable) 'lumos' scene is all you've got to
support the "wandless-magic-theory" I remain absolutely unconvinced.
H
B
P

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

While I don't think the author intends wandless magic to play a major role
here (as opposed to non-verbal spells, which got a lot of attention in HBP),
the young Tom Marvolo Riddle in HBP appeared able to do deliberate magic
without a wand.
Carlotta
2005-07-25 16:45:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Peters
[Carlotta]
Post by Carlotta
But if the only basis for this theory is the 'lumos'-scene it's pretty
wild and far-fetched, isn't it?
Ya, except this is a series in which a pet rat seemingly introduced for
comic relief, and to underline the Weasley's finanical woes, turned out
after 2 3/4s books to be a wizard who played a key role in Harry's past, and
may play another in Harry's future. "Wild and far-fetched" is common enough
here to make it hard to rule out anything.
Mm - I don't know.
There's a difference between a theory and speculation.
A theory has got points that are - maybe not absolutely clear, but al
least not completely open for debate. There is *some* evidence.
A speculation can be anything.

Actually there were points that hinted at Scabbers being more than met
the eye.
He was pretty old for a rat and didn't behave very rat-like.
Of course it wasn't that obvious that anyone could have guessed he is
really an animagus.

And if there's anything I actually learned from reading HBP it's, that
you can't guess the real plot from what JKR has given us as hints and
"evidence".

Take the horcruxes.
They are the link to COs and the information she could have told us
back then.
But there was absolutely no way to conclude to horcruxes from
re-reading COS.

Instead everyone went beserk about who the HBP was and that probably
Tom Riddle was not the same person as Voldemort and could therefore
very well be the HBP although JKR had definatly stated Voldemort was
NOT the HBP.

Such theories are too complicated to come true.
If you have to go think around five corners and pick up tiny tiny bits
that you can turn into evidence to prove your theory, it's likely to be
wrong.

Or have you seen a wild and far-fetched theory come true?
It's fishing in the dark and if wild speculation is all this place is
about, I think I'm off to more reasonable places.
Post by Tim Peters
Post by Carlotta
As long as the (questionable) 'lumos' scene is all you've got to
support the "wandless-magic-theory" I remain absolutely unconvinced.
H
B
P
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
While I don't think the author intends wandless magic to play a major role
here (as opposed to non-verbal spells, which got a lot of attention in HBP),
the young Tom Marvolo Riddle in HBP appeared able to do deliberate magic
without a wand.
But that was, before he went to Hogwarts and got educated.
He does seem to have had more control about it than Harry or the
average magical child has - but it's still a long way from doing
complicated spells without a wand.

If he really could do without - wouldn't it be more logial he
discovered at Hogwarts he didn't need a wand and just left it to rot in
his trunk?
If Voldemort is someone who doesn't want to rely on anyone and anything
- wouldn't he have made sure he reached such a level of competence he
really didn't need a wand at all?
It would have spared him all this same-wand-backfire-business in GOF.
Harry would be dead for two years now.

Voldemort wouldn't rely on a wand if he could do well without.

As far as I can see, there is no real hint that trained wizards can do
advanced magic without a wand.
Children have magic happen to them - they're not in control of it.
Voldemort seems to have gained *some* control over his abilities (and
that was DD quote).
Harry coul ignite his wand in a desperate situation. He didn't do it on
purpose - he was surprized it worked at all, that's probably just
another case of "extreme-situation-accidental-magic"-case.

Fact is rather that:
- if Harry could really do it, we would know by now for sure. He would
have had to exercise that ability I dount JKR will develop that
"plotline" wholely in the seventh book.
- Neither DD nor Voldemort routinely do magic without a wand. If the
two greatest wizards of the era can't do it who else would?
- *If* Voldemort can do it, Harry is dead for sure and JKR would be
giving up showing us a greart fight.

*tosses so called 'theory' into the rubbish bin* ;)

~Carlotta
Andy Platt
2005-07-25 17:21:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlotta
Take the horcruxes.
They are the link to COs and the information she could have told us
back then.
But there was absolutely no way to conclude to horcruxes from
re-reading COS.
Except that someone actually did! OK, they didn't name them that - but they
did suggest that there was soul splittling going on and part of Riddle's
soul had been placed in the diary.

Someone posted the link before but I can't find it :(

Andy.
--
I'm not really here, it's just your warped imagination
Post by Carlotta
Instead everyone went beserk about who the HBP was and that probably
Tom Riddle was not the same person as Voldemort and could therefore
very well be the HBP although JKR had definatly stated Voldemort was
NOT the HBP.
Such theories are too complicated to come true.
If you have to go think around five corners and pick up tiny tiny bits
that you can turn into evidence to prove your theory, it's likely to be
wrong.
Or have you seen a wild and far-fetched theory come true?
It's fishing in the dark and if wild speculation is all this place is
about, I think I'm off to more reasonable places.
Post by Tim Peters
Post by Carlotta
As long as the (questionable) 'lumos' scene is all you've got to
support the "wandless-magic-theory" I remain absolutely unconvinced.
H
B
P
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
While I don't think the author intends wandless magic to play a major role
here (as opposed to non-verbal spells, which got a lot of attention in HBP),
the young Tom Marvolo Riddle in HBP appeared able to do deliberate magic
without a wand.
But that was, before he went to Hogwarts and got educated.
He does seem to have had more control about it than Harry or the
average magical child has - but it's still a long way from doing
complicated spells without a wand.
If he really could do without - wouldn't it be more logial he
discovered at Hogwarts he didn't need a wand and just left it to rot in
his trunk?
If Voldemort is someone who doesn't want to rely on anyone and anything
- wouldn't he have made sure he reached such a level of competence he
really didn't need a wand at all?
It would have spared him all this same-wand-backfire-business in GOF.
Harry would be dead for two years now.
Voldemort wouldn't rely on a wand if he could do well without.
As far as I can see, there is no real hint that trained wizards can do
advanced magic without a wand.
Children have magic happen to them - they're not in control of it.
Voldemort seems to have gained *some* control over his abilities (and
that was DD quote).
Harry coul ignite his wand in a desperate situation. He didn't do it on
purpose - he was surprized it worked at all, that's probably just
another case of "extreme-situation-accidental-magic"-case.
- if Harry could really do it, we would know by now for sure. He would
have had to exercise that ability I dount JKR will develop that
"plotline" wholely in the seventh book.
- Neither DD nor Voldemort routinely do magic without a wand. If the
two greatest wizards of the era can't do it who else would?
- *If* Voldemort can do it, Harry is dead for sure and JKR would be
giving up showing us a greart fight.
*tosses so called 'theory' into the rubbish bin* ;)
~Carlotta
Tim Peters
2005-07-25 23:01:55 UTC
Permalink
[Carlotta]
Post by Carlotta
Post by Tim Peters
Post by Carlotta
But if the only basis for this theory is the 'lumos'-scene it's
pretty wild and far-fetched, isn't it?
[Tim]
Post by Carlotta
Post by Tim Peters
Ya, except this is a series in which a pet rat
... [yadda yadda] ...
"Wild and far-fetched" is common enough here to make it hard to rule
out anything.
[Carlotta]
Post by Carlotta
Mm - I don't know.
There's a difference between a theory and speculation.
A theory has got points that are - maybe not absolutely clear, but al
least not completely open for debate. There is *some* evidence.
A speculation can be anything.
Fine by me, but in that case there's some evidence too for the possibility
to do wandless magic (more later -- this is less drastic than you think).
Post by Carlotta
Actually there were points that hinted at Scabbers being more than met
the eye.
He was pretty old for a rat and didn't behave very rat-like.
Of course it wasn't that obvious that anyone could have guessed he is
really an animagus.
I think this one looks like "a theory" far more in hindsight. But, as you
Post by Carlotta
And if there's anything I actually learned from reading HBP it's, that
you can't guess the real plot from what JKR has given us as hints and
"evidence".
I think that applied to Scabbers in spades -- although I'm sure _someone_
speculated that the little fellow was much more than he seemed, I'm also
sure I would have passed over it with glazed eyes.

H
B
P

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E
Post by Carlotta
Take the horcruxes.
They are the link to COs and the information she could have told us
back then.
But there was absolutely no way to conclude to horcruxes from
re-reading COS.
Well, some people did speculate that Riddle had split his soul even then -
the diary was so extraordinarily powerful. I'll join you in betting that
nobody guessed the word Horcrux, though <wink>.
Post by Carlotta
Instead everyone went beserk about who the HBP was and that probably
Tom Riddle was not the same person as Voldemort and could therefore
very well be the HBP although JKR had definatly stated Voldemort was
NOT the HBP.
Yup, there's a lot of that! I don't take it seriously.
Post by Carlotta
Such theories are too complicated to come true.
If you have to go think around five corners and pick up tiny tiny bits
that you can turn into evidence to prove your theory, it's likely to be
wrong.
I shave with Occam's Razor too ;-) Still, while a beetle is normally just a
beetle, sometimes it's Rita Skeeter eavesdropping. People grasp at tiny
bits because sometimes they were what mattered in the end. You know
about JKR's embarrassment at having named a throwaway character Evans?

http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=49

Mark Evans is... nobody. He's nobody in the sense that Mr.
Prentice, Madam Marsh and Gordon-Dudley's-gang-member are nobodies,
just background people who need names, but who have no role other
than the walk-on parts assigned to them.

...

Then why - WHY - (I hear you cry) - did I give him the surname
"Evans"? Well, believe me, you can't regret it more than I do right
now. "Evans" is a common name; I didn't give it much thought; I
wasn't even trying to set up another red herring. I could just as
easily have called him 'Smith' or 'Jones' (or 'Black' or 'Thomas'
or 'Brown', all of which would have got me into trouble too).

Read the whole FAQ entry (if you like) -- it's a hoot! When people spend 2+
years (over)analyzing the text between books, darned near each word ends up
in some speculation. I'm afraid the best way to tell it's a theory is often
by noting that a later book said it was true ;-)
Post by Carlotta
Or have you seen a wild and far-fetched theory come true?
It's fishing in the dark and if wild speculation is all this place is
about, I think I'm off to more reasonable places.
I'm a relative newcomer at a.f.h-p, and haven't been around long enough to
characterize what this place is about. Mostly it reminds me of Usenet:
lots of voices, lots of chaos, lots of niceness, and some viciousness. As
with other newsgroups over the years, I've started to identify posters I
especially do and don't find worth reading, and it's more fun over time. If
you don't like "silly speculation" threads, that's fine! I bet you'll
develop a very effective early-warning system, and there are posts to suit
every taste (including lack thereof <wink>).
Post by Carlotta
Post by Tim Peters
Post by Carlotta
As long as the (questionable) 'lumos' scene is all you've got to
support the "wandless-magic-theory" I remain absolutely unconvinced.
H
B
P
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
While I don't think the author intends wandless magic to play a major
role here (as opposed to non-verbal spells, which got a lot of
attention in HBP), the young Tom Marvolo Riddle in HBP appeared able
to do deliberate magic without a wand.
But that was, before he went to Hogwarts and got educated.
Sure.
Post by Carlotta
He does seem to have had more control about it than Harry or the
average magical child has - but it's still a long way from doing
complicated spells without a wand.
Ah, that's not what the "wandless magic" threads have really been about --
or at least not how they started.

When Dumbledore was without wand on the Astronomy Tower, how helpless was
he? Could he have stopped Draco? Could he have stopped Snape? We don't
know (from what was spelled out), and they're interesting questions. Young
Tom could move objects, and "make people hurt", without a wand, and just
that much could be enough: perhaps D could have wandlessly given Draco a
sharp pain in the gut, and then willed his wand back to his hand while Draco
was distracted. Complicated spells are a different area of speculation, and
I've seen no evidence in the books suggesting they're possible without a
wand.
Post by Carlotta
If he really could do without - wouldn't it be more logial he
discovered at Hogwarts he didn't need a wand and just left it to rot in
his trunk?
If Voldemort is someone who doesn't want to rely on anyone and anything
- wouldn't he have made sure he reached such a level of competence he
really didn't need a wand at all?
It would have spared him all this same-wand-backfire-business in GOF.
Harry would be dead for two years now.
Voldemort wouldn't rely on a wand if he could do well without.
As far as I can see, there is no real hint that trained wizards can do
advanced magic without a wand.
Me neither, but the interesting questions wrt D's death are in regard to
potentially simple magic.
Post by Carlotta
Children have magic happen to them - they're not in control of it.
Voldemort seems to have gained *some* control over his abilities (and
that was DD quote).
Also Tom's self-reporting, which D seemed to accept.
Post by Carlotta
Harry coul ignite his wand in a desperate situation. He didn't do it on
purpose - he was surprized it worked at all, that's probably just
another case of "extreme-situation-accidental-magic"-case.
- if Harry could really do it, we would know by now for sure. He would
have had to exercise that ability I dount JKR will develop that
"plotline" wholely in the seventh book.
- Neither DD nor Voldemort routinely do magic without a wand. If the
two greatest wizards of the era can't do it who else would?
- *If* Voldemort can do it, Harry is dead for sure and JKR would be
giving up showing us a greart fight.
*tosses so called 'theory' into the rubbish bin* ;)
Good for you! It belongs there. The bit about simple magic remains a
mystery to me, though -- I try tossing that theory into the bin, and it
keeps popping out again. Screams "magic" to me <wink>.
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
2005-07-25 15:35:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlotta
Post by Sky_rider
Some magic a wizard/witch can do without having to use a wand as the
focus for the magical power.
I'm really at a loss - where is that in the books?
All the way through, actually. ^_^
Post by Carlotta
Post by Sky_rider
wandless magic has endless possibilities, think of the advantage you
would have over your opponent if you could do magic without raising a
wand, without saying a word.
Yes - but so far neither Harry nor Dumbledore nor Voldemort have done
it. (Apart from the 'lumos'-incident, which concerned only the (nearby)
wand and is something completely different from - say casting an
Unforgivable Curse without a wand).
Just a few examples off the top of my head - Quirrel wandlessly conjured
ropes to tie Harry up, then at the feast Dumbledore changed the banners in
the Great Hall. Later on, Harry made Marge swell up, then a cupboard door
opened for him as he approached it. Then at TLC, Tom the innkeeper lit the
fire by clicking his fingers; oh yes, on the train Lupin made flames in his
hand. I'm sure there are other examples, especially by Dumbledore, and I
can recall Snape doing wandless magic somewhere, can anyone chip in?


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
Faron
2005-07-28 00:21:43 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:35:08 BST, in message
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Post by Carlotta
Post by Sky_rider
Some magic a wizard/witch can do without having to use a wand as the
focus for the magical power.
I'm really at a loss - where is that in the books?
All the way through, actually. ^_^
Post by Carlotta
Post by Sky_rider
wandless magic has endless possibilities, think of the advantage you
would have over your opponent if you could do magic without raising a
wand, without saying a word.
Yes - but so far neither Harry nor Dumbledore nor Voldemort have done
it. (Apart from the 'lumos'-incident, which concerned only the (nearby)
wand and is something completely different from - say casting an
Unforgivable Curse without a wand).
Just a few examples off the top of my head - Quirrel wandlessly conjured
ropes to tie Harry up, then at the feast Dumbledore changed the banners in
the Great Hall. Later on, Harry made Marge swell up, then a cupboard door
opened for him as he approached it. Then at TLC, Tom the innkeeper lit the
fire by clicking his fingers; oh yes, on the train Lupin made flames in his
hand. I'm sure there are other examples, especially by Dumbledore, and I
can recall Snape doing wandless magic somewhere, can anyone chip in?
The counter-spell when Quirrel tried to make Harry fall off his broom?
--
Faron
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
2005-07-28 09:39:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Faron
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Just a few examples off the top of my head - Quirrel wandlessly
conjured ropes to tie Harry up, then at the feast Dumbledore changed
the banners in the Great Hall. Later on, Harry made Marge swell up,
then a cupboard door opened for him as he approached it. Then at TLC,
Tom the innkeeper lit the fire by clicking his fingers; oh yes, on the
train Lupin made flames in his hand. I'm sure there are other examples,
especially by Dumbledore, and I can recall Snape doing wandless magic
somewhere, can anyone chip in?
The counter-spell when Quirrel tried to make Harry fall off his broom?
Err, I'm not quite sure about this - there was no counter spell, Hermione
accidentally bumped into him. Or do you mean counter-broomstick spell?


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
Philip Lewis
2005-07-28 20:02:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Post by Faron
The counter-spell when Quirrel tried to make Harry fall off his broom?
Err, I'm not quite sure about this - there was no counter spell, Hermione
accidentally bumped into him. Or do you mean counter-broomstick spell?
They saw snape mumbling, but made no mention of him actively waving
his wand. (that i recall)

This does not preclude him holding his wand, but at his side.


One has to also wonder about some of the other "wandless" magics,
however. Could some of them be cast with a wand, only to be triggered
later on? Take the mauraders map for example. (I don't recall offhand
if a wand is needed for that... but i thought it was just "swearing"
and "managing")
--
be safe.
flip
Ich habe keine Ahnung was das bedeutet, oder vielleicht doch?
Remove origin of the word spam from address to reply (leave "+")
Faron
2005-07-28 23:27:37 UTC
Permalink
On 28 Jul 2005 16:02:49 -0400, in message
<***@unix42.andrew.cmu.edu>,
Philip Lewis <flip+***@andrew.cmu.edu> happily informed us:

<snip>
Post by Philip Lewis
One has to also wonder about some of the other "wandless" magics,
however. Could some of them be cast with a wand, only to be triggered
later on? Take the mauraders map for example. (I don't recall offhand
if a wand is needed for that... but i thought it was just "swearing"
and "managing")
You tap it with your wand and solemnly swear you're up to no good. :)

Magic with a timer? Sounds like something the Weasley twins would
already have shown us if it existed... :)


Faron
--
"I am not worried, Harry,"
said Dumbledore, his voice a little
stronger despite the freezing water.
"I am with you."
Meghan Noecker
2005-07-28 09:27:14 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:35:08 BST, Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Just a few examples off the top of my head - Quirrel wandlessly conjured
ropes to tie Harry up, then at the feast Dumbledore changed the banners in
the Great Hall. Later on, Harry made Marge swell up, then a cupboard door
opened for him as he approached it.
Good point. All of Harry's incidents before school were examples of
wandless magic.


--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
2005-07-29 09:12:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Meghan Noecker
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Just a few examples off the top of my head - Quirrel wandlessly
conjured ropes to tie Harry up, then at the feast Dumbledore changed
the banners in the Great Hall. Later on, Harry made Marge swell up,
then a cupboard door opened for him as he approached it.
Good point.
Thanks.
Post by Meghan Noecker
All of Harry's incidents before school were examples of wandless magic.
Well, one might argue that they were unfocused; but I can't help thinking
that allowing young wizards & witches to have wands is a big mistake, since
they handicap their full potential. Unless of course, the hidden agenda is
to stop the development of powers far greater than those of dark wizards.


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
Richard Eney
2005-08-02 06:17:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Post by Meghan Noecker
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Just a few examples off the top of my head - Quirrel wandlessly
conjured ropes to tie Harry up, then at the feast Dumbledore changed
the banners in the Great Hall. Later on, Harry made Marge swell up,
then a cupboard door opened for him as he approached it.
All of Harry's incidents before school were examples of wandless magic.
Well, one might argue that they were unfocused; but I can't help thinking
that allowing young wizards & witches to have wands is a big mistake, since
they handicap their full potential. Unless of course, the hidden agenda is
to stop the development of powers far greater than those of dark wizards.
Requiring that the young wizards and witches use wands has two very useful
results: it helps them to control the flow of magic, and it trains them to
restrict their use of magic to channeling it through a wand. For most
people, that is not a problem, it is a good thing. It protects everyone
around them from the splashy effects of uncontrolled and unconscious
magic. (Harry didn't consciously intend to blow up Marge!)

For the occasional very talented mage, it will also not be a problem -
he/she will overcome the artificial limitation. The hidden agenda of
handicapping most of the wizard population that way could be used for
evil, but so could being Headmaster of Hogwarts - do you really think that
DD kept that job just to be a good mentor to generations of students?
Could it be that he wanted that job for the same reason Voldemort wanted
it - so he could know the strengths and weaknesses of virtually every
magic-user in the UK, in case he ever had to fight them? No wonder
there's a fund to pay for the school supplies for impoverished students
(and again no mention of tuition at all).

=Tamar
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
2005-08-02 23:24:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Eney
I can't help thinking that allowing young wizards & witches to have
wands is a big mistake, since they handicap their full potential.
Unless of course, the hidden agenda is to stop the development of
powers far greater than those of dark wizards.
Requiring that the young wizards and witches use wands has two very useful
results: it helps them to control the flow of magic, and it trains them to
restrict their use of magic to channeling it through a wand. For most
people, that is not a problem, it is a good thing. It protects everyone
around them from the splashy effects of uncontrolled and unconscious
magic. (Harry didn't consciously intend to blow up Marge!)
That's so.
Post by Richard Eney
For the occasional very talented mage, it will also not be a problem -
he/she will overcome the artificial limitation. The hidden agenda of
handicapping most of the wizard population that way could be used for
evil, but so could being Headmaster of Hogwarts - do you really think that
DD kept that job just to be a good mentor to generations of students?
Heh-he.
Post by Richard Eney
Could it be that he wanted that job for the same reason Voldemort wanted
it - so he could know the strengths and weaknesses of virtually every
magic-user in the UK, in case he ever had to fight them? No wonder
there's a fund to pay for the school supplies for impoverished students
(and again no mention of tuition at all).
I just worry that a wand could become a crutch - a bit like giving pocket
calculators to children before they've learnt to do arithmetic.


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
Paul Lints
2005-08-03 03:06:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Post by Richard Eney
I can't help thinking that allowing young wizards & witches to have
wands is a big mistake, since they handicap their full potential.
Unless of course, the hidden agenda is to stop the development of
powers far greater than those of dark wizards.
Requiring that the young wizards and witches use wands has two very useful
results: it helps them to control the flow of magic, and it trains them to
restrict their use of magic to channeling it through a wand. For most
people, that is not a problem, it is a good thing. It protects everyone
around them from the splashy effects of uncontrolled and unconscious
magic. (Harry didn't consciously intend to blow up Marge!)
That's so.
Post by Richard Eney
For the occasional very talented mage, it will also not be a problem -
he/she will overcome the artificial limitation. The hidden agenda of
handicapping most of the wizard population that way could be used for
evil, but so could being Headmaster of Hogwarts - do you really think that
DD kept that job just to be a good mentor to generations of students?
<snip>
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
I just worry that a wand could become a crutch - a bit like giving pocket
calculators to children before they've learnt to do arithmetic.
http://www.twwn.net/JKR5.shtml

"Do you need a Wand to do Magic?
You can do unfocused and uncontrolled magic without a wand (for instance
when Harry blows up Aunt Marge), but to do really good spells, yes, you
need a wand.."


It's not a crutch, it's a requirement...
--
Paul W. Lints Jr. UIN: 25030144
Valid email: pwlints@*DELETEME*csupomona.edu
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
2005-08-04 00:36:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Lints
http://www.twwn.net/JKR5.shtml
"Do you need a Wand to do Magic?
You can do unfocused and uncontrolled magic without a wand (for instance
when Harry blows up Aunt Marge), but to do really good spells, yes, you
need a wand.."
It's not a crutch, it's a requirement...
I've already answered that point in the thread...

I wrote: what constitutes a "really good spell" - Wingardium Leviosa?
Alohomora? Expelliarmus? Imperio? Expecto Patronum? Portus? Horcrucia?

We've seen focused controlled conjuring & transfiguration without a
wand; and although 4th-year Harry found Accio a bit tricky, this must
be the first wandless spell they teach trainees at Auror College.


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
Mark Evans
2005-08-20 12:08:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Post by Paul Lints
http://www.twwn.net/JKR5.shtml
"Do you need a Wand to do Magic?
You can do unfocused and uncontrolled magic without a wand (for instance
when Harry blows up Aunt Marge), but to do really good spells, yes, you
need a wand.."
It's not a crutch, it's a requirement...
I've already answered that point in the thread...
I wrote: what constitutes a "really good spell" - Wingardium Leviosa?
Alohomora? Expelliarmus? Imperio? Expecto Patronum? Portus? Horcrucia?
We've seen focused controlled conjuring & transfiguration without a
wand; and although 4th-year Harry found Accio a bit tricky, this must
be the first wandless spell they teach trainees at Auror College.
Especially "Accio wand" :)

Though "How to blow up your aunt" might come in useful to Tonks.
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
2005-09-05 17:06:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Evans
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
"Do you need a Wand to do Magic? You can do unfocused and uncontrolled
magic without a wand (for instance when Harry blows up Aunt Marge),
but to do really good spells, yes, you need a wand.."
I've already answered that point in the thread...
I wrote: what constitutes a "really good spell" - Wingardium Leviosa?
Alohomora? Expelliarmus? Imperio? Expecto Patronum? Portus? Horcrucia?
We've seen focused controlled conjuring & transfiguration without a
wand; and although 4th-year Harry found Accio a bit tricky, this must
be the first wandless spell they teach trainees at Auror College.
Especially "Accio wand" :)
That was the general idea. ^_^
Post by Mark Evans
Though "How to blow up your aunt" might come in useful to Tonks.
Haha, yes, Cissy & Bella are far worse than Petunia & Marge.


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
Mark Evans
2005-08-20 12:06:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Lints
http://www.twwn.net/JKR5.shtml
"Do you need a Wand to do Magic?
You can do unfocused and uncontrolled magic without a wand (for instance
when Harry blows up Aunt Marge), but to do really good spells, yes, you
need a wand.."
Doing the same kind of thing to a Death Eater might be rather useful
though. Especially if they think that Wizards without wands are no
threat to them.
Post by Paul Lints
It's not a crutch, it's a requirement...
BubblyBabs
2005-08-03 14:15:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Meghan Noecker
On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:35:08 BST, Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Just a few examples off the top of my head - Quirrel wandlessly conjured
ropes to tie Harry up, then at the feast Dumbledore changed the banners in
the Great Hall. Later on, Harry made Marge swell up, then a cupboard door
opened for him as he approached it.
Good point. All of Harry's incidents before school were examples of
wandless magic.
And all of Tom Riddles magic in the orphanage was wandless and he apparently
did some doozy magic before he knew what he was doing....

Babs
Tim Bruening
2005-08-08 05:14:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlotta
Post by Sky_rider
Some magic a wizard/witch can do without having to use a wand as the
focus for the magical power.
I'm really at a loss - where is that in the books?
Post by Sky_rider
wandless magic has endless possibilities, think of the advantage you would
have over your opponent if you could do magic without raising a wand,
without saying a word.
Yes - but so far neither Harry nor Dumbledore nor Voldemort have done
it. (Apart from the 'lumos'-incident, which concerned only the (nearby)
wand and is something completely different from - say casting an
Unforgivable Curse without a wand).
It didn't happen so far - why should it be a big issue in #7?
Quirrel conjured ropes and attempted to curse Harry without a wand (SS). In
HBP, Tom Riddle was able to do magic without a wand (telekinesis, controlling
animals, hurting people).
2***@wongfaye.com
2005-08-08 22:03:59 UTC
Permalink
also you dont need a wand for disaperation

othewise hagrid would haev some explainin to do he wasnt supposed to
have a wand in the first couple books

wandless magic is fascinating as you cannot be prevented from doing it
by disarming

and now that we know about non verbal spells you can really blend with
muggles and still do magic

of course why did snape need to move his lips to stabilize harrys broom
in the first book
Meghan Noecker
2005-07-28 09:27:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlotta
Sorry, folks, but I don't get it. Could somebody enlighten me, please?
Why would it matter wether Harry/Dumbledore can do magic without a
wand?
Both of them seem to use their wands on a regular basis.
Why would they if they didn't really need them?
Wandless magic wasn't a big issue in books one through six - why would
it suddelny become important in book seven?
Merlins beard - even Voldermort uses a wand...
Please?
I wonder if this might be one of the accidental hints in the 3rd
movie. There were a few cases of wandless magic then. Dumbledore
lighting and putting out candles. Lupin unlocking the trunk with the
boggart inside. They were minor, easy items to do, but a hint that it
was possible.




--
Meghan & the Zoo Crew
Equine and Pet Photography
http://www.zoocrewphoto.com
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
2005-07-29 09:13:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Meghan Noecker
I wonder if this might be one of the accidental hints in the 3rd
movie. There were a few cases of wandless magic then. Dumbledore
lighting and putting out candles. Lupin unlocking the trunk with the
boggart inside. They were minor, easy items to do, but a hint that it
was possible.
Yes, I wonder how Voldemort would fare in a duel with Samantha Stephens
or Sabrina Spellman - he'd be dead meat without his little stick.


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
Tim Bruening
2005-08-07 11:24:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlotta
Sorry, folks, but I don't get it. Could somebody enlighten me, please?
Why would it matter wether Harry/Dumbledore can do magic without a
wand?
Both of them seem to use their wands on a regular basis.
Why would they if they didn't really need them?
Wandless magic wasn't a big issue in books one through six - why would
it suddelny become important in book seven?
Merlins beard - even Voldermort uses a wand...
Please?
Quirrel did magic without a wand in book 1 (conjuring ropes around Harry,
attempting to curse him), and Tom Riddle was able to do significant magic
without a wand before he entered Hogwarts (telekinesis, controlng animals,
hurting people).
Patricia Butler
2005-08-20 14:23:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carlotta
Sorry, folks, but I don't get it. Could somebody enlighten me, please?
Why would it matter wether Harry/Dumbledore can do magic without a
wand?
Both of them seem to use their wands on a regular basis.
Why would they if they didn't really need them?
Wandless magic wasn't a big issue in books one through six - why would
it suddelny become important in book seven?
Merlins beard - even Voldermort uses a wand...
Please?
It's not that hard to understand. Think of all the situations in books
one throiugh six in which being able to do magic without a wand
would've saved the day (like when their wands were taken away from them
in book five and they had to go into the forest without them). It's
just good sense that if someone doesn't have to signal their movements
by brandishing a wand -- and by speaking out loud, which is the other
area of concentration this year -- they're going to have an advantage
over their opponent.
Paul Lints
2005-08-20 18:12:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patricia Butler
Post by Carlotta
Sorry, folks, but I don't get it. Could somebody enlighten me, please?
Why would it matter wether Harry/Dumbledore can do magic without a
wand?
Both of them seem to use their wands on a regular basis.
Why would they if they didn't really need them?
Wandless magic wasn't a big issue in books one through six - why would
it suddelny become important in book seven?
Merlins beard - even Voldermort uses a wand...
Please?
It's not that hard to understand. Think of all the situations in books
one throiugh six in which being able to do magic without a wand
would've saved the day (like when their wands were taken away from them
in book five and they had to go into the forest without them). It's
just good sense that if someone doesn't have to signal their movements
by brandishing a wand -- and by speaking out loud, which is the other
area of concentration this year -- they're going to have an advantage
over their opponent.
And yet the two greatest wizards in recent history are both completely
dependent on wands. What does that tell you?
--
Paul W. Lints Jr. UIN: 25030144
Valid email: pwlints@*DELETEME*csupomona.edu
Patricia Butler
2005-08-20 23:19:03 UTC
Permalink
Because they've used wands doesn't mean they HAVE to use wands.
Post by Paul Lints
Post by Patricia Butler
Post by Carlotta
Sorry, folks, but I don't get it. Could somebody enlighten me, please?
Why would it matter wether Harry/Dumbledore can do magic without a
wand?
Both of them seem to use their wands on a regular basis.
Why would they if they didn't really need them?
Wandless magic wasn't a big issue in books one through six - why would
it suddelny become important in book seven?
Merlins beard - even Voldermort uses a wand...
Please?
It's not that hard to understand. Think of all the situations in books
one throiugh six in which being able to do magic without a wand
would've saved the day (like when their wands were taken away from them
in book five and they had to go into the forest without them). It's
just good sense that if someone doesn't have to signal their movements
by brandishing a wand -- and by speaking out loud, which is the other
area of concentration this year -- they're going to have an advantage
over their opponent.
And yet the two greatest wizards in recent history are both completely
dependent on wands. What does that tell you?
--
Paul W. Lints Jr. UIN: 25030144
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
2005-09-05 17:03:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Lints
And yet the two greatest wizards in recent history are both completely
dependent on wands. What does that tell you?
That you're wrong. ^_^

Dumbledore does wandless magic, and there is every reason to suppose that
Riddle does too, especially since Barty Junior can (and since he was being
Moody, the old auror probably can as well, at least a wandless accio which
must be a professional requirement). As I have already pointed out in this
thread, we have also seen Quirrel/Lupin/Harry and Tom the innkeeper doing
wandless magic. I'm sure that Snape has too, but I can't locate where.


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
Paul Lints
2005-09-05 19:04:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Post by Paul Lints
And yet the two greatest wizards in recent history are both completely
dependent on wands. What does that tell you?
That you're wrong. ^_^
...try again.
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Dumbledore does wandless magic, and there is every reason to suppose that
Riddle does too, especially since Barty Junior can (and since he was being
Moody, the old auror probably can as well, at least a wandless accio which
must be a professional requirement). As I have already pointed out in this
thread, we have also seen Quirrel/Lupin/Harry and Tom the innkeeper doing
wandless magic. I'm sure that Snape has too, but I can't locate where.
Please give specific examples, and ones that don't include the movies.

The only "wandless magic" Dumbledore does in the books is when he
changes the decorations in the Great Hall. I don't recall Lupin ever
doing magic without a wand in the books. And Quirrel was in book 1, and
as you may realize if you read more of my posts on the issue is that I
don't believe JKR completely had the rules of the Potterverse hammered
out by then. We haven't seen adults doing REAL MAGIC without a wand
since PS. The most recent being when Dumbledore could have done a
"wandless /Accio/" as you say...he didn't, and he died.
--
Paul W. Lints Jr. UIN: 25030144
Valid email: pwlints@*DELETEME*csupomona.edu
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
2005-09-07 17:17:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Lints
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Post by Paul Lints
And yet the two greatest wizards in recent history are both completely
dependent on wands. What does that tell you?
That you're wrong. ^_^
...try again.
Having seen how you debate, I'm disinclined to try hard.
Post by Paul Lints
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Dumbledore does wandless magic, and there is every reason to suppose
that Riddle does too, especially since Barty Junior can (and since he
was being Moody, the old auror probably can as well, at least a
wandless accio which must be a professional requirement). As I have
already pointed out in this thread, we have also seen
Quirrel/Lupin/Harry and Tom the innkeeper doing wandless magic. I'm
sure that Snape has too, but I can't locate where.
Please give specific examples, and ones that don't include the movies.
I only ~ever~ refer to the books, never the movies. Examples follow.
Post by Paul Lints
The only "wandless magic" Dumbledore does in the books is when he
changes the decorations in the Great Hall. I don't recall Lupin ever
doing magic without a wand in the books. And Quirrel was in book 1, and
as you may realize if you read more of my posts on the issue is that I
don't believe JKR completely had the rules of the Potterverse hammered
out by then
That's rubbish, asserted by you to back up your ideas. Before book 1 came
out, Rowling spent several years filling notebooks with the parameters of
her world, since what can & can't be done influences her plotting.
Post by Paul Lints
We haven't seen adults doing REAL MAGIC without a wand since PS.
That depends on how you define real magic. I don't dispute that the most
difficult of spells require a wand; but that leaves an awful lot of very
useful magic that can be done with the fingers, possibly just the mind.

As for insisting on adults doing it, the way you talk a powerful auror
could easily be killed by a mere child, if neither of them had wands.
Post by Paul Lints
The most recent being when Dumbledore could have done a
"wandless /Accio/" as you say...he didn't, and he died.
Since we've seen wizards perform wandless accios - a vital ability for
aurors without which they could easily be defeated - you can't use this
controversial incident to back up your claims. I suggest you wait for
book 7 to find out what Dumbledore & Snape were really doing here.

1.17 Quirrel conjures ropes by snapping his fingers
1.17 Dumbledore changes banners by clapping his hands
2.17 Harry uses Fawkes' power to levitate three people
3.02 Harry transforms his Aunt Marge into a balloon
3.02 Harry makes a door open merely by approaching it
3.03 barman Tom lights a fire by clicking his fingers
3.05 Lupin conjures shivering flames cupped in his hands
3.19 Snape accios the ends of the cords binding Lupin
4.25 Barty Jr (impersonating Moody) accios a parchment
4.33 Voldemort blackens Wormtail's tattoo with one finger,
thus hurting Harry, and summoning his Death Eaters
5.01 Harry uses Lumos to locate his wand in the dark

Many thanks to all those who found the Snape & Voldemort examples for
me; and good luck you guys with searching the rest of books 5 and 6.


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
2005-09-07 16:48:18 UTC
Permalink
There is every reason to suppose that Riddle does wandless magic.
Book 4 chapter 33; when he uses one finger to blacken the tattoo on
Wormtail's arm, thus hurting Harry, and summoning Death Eaters.
I'm sure that Snape has too, but I can't locate where.
Book 3 chapter 19; when he accios the ends of cords binding Lupin.


Blon, (with thanks to diligent friends for all their help)
--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
gjw
2005-09-07 22:14:08 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 17:48:18 BST, Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Book 3 chapter 19; when he accios the ends of cords binding Lupin.
Blon, (with thanks to diligent friends for all their help)
One problem I see with this is that it's hard to refer to it as
'wandless' magic when the wizard has a wand with him at the time.
("BANG! Thin, snakelike cords burst from the end of Snape's wand..."
"...He clicked his fingers, and the ends of the cords that bound Lupin
flew to his hands...")

In other words, could he have "clicked his fingers" and moved the
cords if he didn't have a wand at all? Hard to say...
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
2005-09-08 16:56:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by gjw
On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 17:48:18 BST, Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Book 3 chapter 19; when he accios the ends of cords binding Lupin.
One problem I see with this is that it's hard to refer to it as
'wandless' magic when the wizard has a wand with him at the time.
("BANG! Thin, snakelike cords burst from the end of Snape's wand..."
"...He clicked his fingers, and the ends of the cords that bound Lupin
flew to his hands...")
In other words, could he have "clicked his fingers" and moved the
cords if he didn't have a wand at all? Hard to say...
Who knows, though it's a bit of a stretch. However, Harry definitely
didn't have his wand with him when he used Lumos to find it in the
dark, though sceptics will doubtless claim the wand did all the work.

We won't know for sure unless someone performs a wandless Accio Wand,
and even then you could claim it was a wandfull spell - in which case,
what's the point of Expelliarmus, if merely owning a wand is enough?


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
gjw
2005-09-09 05:41:48 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 17:56:54 BST, Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
We won't know for sure unless someone performs a wandless Accio Wand,
and even then you could claim it was a wandfull spell
Harry actually tries "Accio Wand" when he's frozen on the train.
Doesn't work, of course. But he was trying to do it as a silent
spell, so we can't say positively why it failed: because he didn't
have a wand, because he didn't speak the words, or a combination of
both...
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
2005-09-10 16:08:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by gjw
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
We won't know for sure unless someone performs a wandless Accio Wand,
and even then you could claim it was a wandfull spell
Harry actually tries "Accio Wand" when he's frozen on the train.
Really? <checks> Oh yes, good call.
Post by gjw
Doesn't work, of course. But he was trying to do it as a silent
spell, so we can't say positively why it failed: because he didn't
have a wand, because he didn't speak the words, or a combination of
both...
Insufficient training I guess. They should start with learning to use each
other's wands, then progress to hands-off incantations. Only once mastered
would the student attempt non-verbal. Harry badly needs Remus & Hermione
teaching him if he's to stand a chance against Voldemort (or Sabrina).


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
Troels Forchhammer
2005-09-11 00:08:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Post by gjw
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
We won't know for sure unless someone performs a wandless Accio
Wand, and even then you could claim it was a wandfull spell
Harry actually tries "Accio Wand" when he's frozen on the train.
Really? <checks> Oh yes, good call.
That, however, was also attempted as a non-verbal spell while petrified
...

Harry does, in OotP-1, do a /Lumos/ that lights up his wand even if he
isn't holding it.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Gravity is a habit that is hard to shake off.
- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)
gjw
2005-09-11 17:37:54 UTC
Permalink
On 11 Sep 2005 00:08:55 GMT, Troels Forchhammer
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Post by gjw
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
We won't know for sure unless someone performs a wandless Accio
Wand, and even then you could claim it was a wandfull spell
Harry actually tries "Accio Wand" when he's frozen on the train.
Really? <checks> Oh yes, good call.
That, however, was also attempted as a non-verbal spell while petrified
...
Harry does, in OotP-1, do a /Lumos/ that lights up his wand even if he
isn't holding it.
True. But the Lumos spell only affects the wand itself. Wands may
have a few built-in spells, such as Lumos, designed to help when you
lose them. But so far we haven't seen a successful 'Accio wand'
without a wand... Chances are that JKR has avoided it because it might
rob her of the opportunity to disarm her characters when she wants to.
It would have, for instance, radically changed the Dumbledore/Draco
scene in the tower.
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
2005-09-11 23:37:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Post by gjw
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
We won't know for sure unless someone performs a wandless Accio
Wand, and even then you could claim it was a wandfull spell
Harry actually tries "Accio Wand" when he's frozen on the train.
Really? <checks> Oh yes, good call.
That, however, was also attempted as a non-verbal spell while petrified
Yep.
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Harry does, in OotP-1, do a /Lumos/ that lights up his wand even if he
isn't holding it.
That's already on the list from a few posts back...

1.17 Quirrel conjures ropes by snapping his fingers
1.17 Dumbledore changes banners by clapping his hands
2.17 Harry uses Fawkes' power to levitate three people
3.02 Harry transforms his Aunt Marge into a balloon
3.02 Harry makes a door open merely by approaching it
3.03 barman Tom lights a fire by clicking his fingers
3.05 Lupin conjures shivering flames cupped in his hands
3.19 Snape accios the ends of the cords binding Lupin
4.25 Barty Jr (impersonating Moody) accios a parchment
4.33 Voldemort blackens Wormtail's tattoo with one finger,
thus hurting Harry, and summoning his Death Eaters
5.01 Harry uses Lumos to locate his wand in the dark

..do you know of any examples from the rest of books 5 and 6?


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
gjw
2005-09-12 05:39:38 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 00:37:58 BST, Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Post by gjw
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
We won't know for sure unless someone performs a wandless Accio
Wand, and even then you could claim it was a wandfull spell
Harry actually tries "Accio Wand" when he's frozen on the train.
Really? <checks> Oh yes, good call.
That, however, was also attempted as a non-verbal spell while petrified
Yep.
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Harry does, in OotP-1, do a /Lumos/ that lights up his wand even if he
isn't holding it.
That's already on the list from a few posts back...
1.17 Quirrel conjures ropes by snapping his fingers
1.17 Dumbledore changes banners by clapping his hands
2.17 Harry uses Fawkes' power to levitate three people
3.02 Harry transforms his Aunt Marge into a balloon
3.02 Harry makes a door open merely by approaching it
3.03 barman Tom lights a fire by clicking his fingers
3.05 Lupin conjures shivering flames cupped in his hands
3.19 Snape accios the ends of the cords binding Lupin
4.25 Barty Jr (impersonating Moody) accios a parchment
4.33 Voldemort blackens Wormtail's tattoo with one finger,
thus hurting Harry, and summoning his Death Eaters
5.01 Harry uses Lumos to locate his wand in the dark
We can throw out the Fawkes example and the accidental magic of
blowing up his aunt, but the rest work.

But the problem with your list is that we don't know whether the
person had a wand with them when they cast the spell. It's possible
that as long as you have a wand on your person, you can cast the spell
without actually pointing the wand at the person. Quirrel, for
instance, might have had his wand in his left hand and snapped the
fingers of his right hand (or vice versa). Others could have had the
wand in their pocket...

To find a perfect example of wandless magic, we would need to know
that the person was indeed wandless - that is, he did not have his
wand on his person. And the spell would have to be a deliberate,
focused one that affected something other than the wand itself.

Otherwise, there's the danger that Rowling was just taking a bit of
artistic license (via dramatic gestures such as hand-clapping or
finger-snapping), while not really intending to give an example of
genuine wandless magic.

Someone asked her about it, and as I recall she said that you can do
unfocused, uncontrolled magic without a wand (she even mentioned Aunt
Marge) but that to do "really good spells", you needed a wand.
Alex R. Mosteo
2005-09-12 09:40:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by gjw
On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 00:37:58 BST, Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Post by gjw
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
We won't know for sure unless someone performs a wandless Accio
Wand, and even then you could claim it was a wandfull spell
Harry actually tries "Accio Wand" when he's frozen on the train.
Really? <checks> Oh yes, good call.
That, however, was also attempted as a non-verbal spell while petrified
Yep.
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Harry does, in OotP-1, do a /Lumos/ that lights up his wand even if he
isn't holding it.
That's already on the list from a few posts back...
1.17 Quirrel conjures ropes by snapping his fingers
1.17 Dumbledore changes banners by clapping his hands
2.17 Harry uses Fawkes' power to levitate three people
3.02 Harry transforms his Aunt Marge into a balloon
3.02 Harry makes a door open merely by approaching it
3.03 barman Tom lights a fire by clicking his fingers
3.05 Lupin conjures shivering flames cupped in his hands
3.19 Snape accios the ends of the cords binding Lupin
4.25 Barty Jr (impersonating Moody) accios a parchment
4.33 Voldemort blackens Wormtail's tattoo with one finger,
thus hurting Harry, and summoning his Death Eaters
5.01 Harry uses Lumos to locate his wand in the dark
We can throw out the Fawkes example and the accidental magic of
blowing up his aunt, but the rest work.
But the problem with your list is that we don't know whether the
person had a wand with them when they cast the spell. It's possible
that as long as you have a wand on your person, you can cast the spell
without actually pointing the wand at the person. Quirrel, for
instance, might have had his wand in his left hand and snapped the
fingers of his right hand (or vice versa). Others could have had the
wand in their pocket...
To find a perfect example of wandless magic, we would need to know
that the person was indeed wandless - that is, he did not have his
wand on his person. And the spell would have to be a deliberate,
focused one that affected something other than the wand itself.
I think you're being too prudent -- not that I see that as a problem.
Really, I can see the wands as a mean of "tunneling/focusing" the magic
"essence", but simply having a wand in the pocket, like it was a fuse
you need to perform magic, seems a bit weak.

I find specially interesting the example of harry opening the door.
That's no unfocused, it achieves exactly what Harry wants: removing an
obstacle in his way.
Post by gjw
Otherwise, there's the danger that Rowling was just taking a bit of
artistic license (via dramatic gestures such as hand-clapping or
finger-snapping), while not really intending to give an example of
genuine wandless magic.
Someone asked her about it, and as I recall she said that you can do
unfocused, uncontrolled magic without a wand (she even mentioned Aunt
Marge) but that to do "really good spells", you needed a wand.
--
Take the Snape polls: http://snape.mosteo.com [Updated 16/05]
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
2005-09-12 17:22:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex R. Mosteo
Post by gjw
To find a perfect example of wandless magic, we would need to know
that the person was indeed wandless - that is, he did not have his
wand on his person. And the spell would have to be a deliberate,
focused one that affected something other than the wand itself.
I think you're being too prudent -- not that I see that as a problem.
Really, I can see the wands as a mean of "tunneling/focusing" the magic
"essence", but simply having a wand in the pocket, like it was a fuse
you need to perform magic, seems a bit weak.
Thanks Alex, you talk a great deal of sense.
Post by Alex R. Mosteo
I find specially interesting the example of harry opening the door.
That's no unfocused, it achieves exactly what Harry wants: removing an
obstacle in his way.
Good point.


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
--
Yay! We've got the Ashes back!
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
2005-09-13 16:53:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex R. Mosteo
I find specially interesting the example of harry opening the door.
That's no unfocused, it achieves exactly what Harry wants: removing an
obstacle in his way.
I've just realised that it's an even better example, since Harry did not
have his wand on his person - it was in his trunk inside a cupboard.


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
2005-09-12 17:21:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by gjw
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Harry does, in OotP-1, do a /Lumos/ that lights up his wand even if he
isn't holding it.
That's already on the list from a few posts back...
1.17 Quirrel conjures ropes by snapping his fingers
1.17 Dumbledore changes banners by clapping his hands
2.17 Harry uses Fawkes' power to levitate three people
3.02 Harry transforms his Aunt Marge into a balloon
3.02 Harry makes a door open merely by approaching it
3.03 barman Tom lights a fire by clicking his fingers
3.05 Lupin conjures shivering flames cupped in his hands
3.19 Snape accios the ends of the cords binding Lupin
4.25 Barty Jr (impersonating Moody) accios a parchment
4.33 Voldemort blackens Wormtail's tattoo with one finger,
thus hurting Harry, and summoning his Death Eaters
5.01 Harry uses Lumos to locate his wand in the dark
We can throw out the Fawkes example and the accidental magic of
blowing up his aunt, but the rest work.
Why is it okay to do wandless magic accidentally, but as soon as
someone suggests it can be deliberate, that's claimed impossible?
Post by gjw
But the problem with your list is that we don't know whether the
person had a wand with them when they cast the spell. It's possible
that as long as you have a wand on your person, you can cast the spell
without actually pointing the wand at the person. Quirrel, for
instance, might have had his wand in his left hand and snapped the
fingers of his right hand (or vice versa). Others could have had the
wand in their pocket...
To find a perfect example of wandless magic, we would need to know
that the person was indeed wandless - that is, he did not have his
wand on his person. And the spell would have to be a deliberate,
focused one that affected something other than the wand itself.
Otherwise, there's the danger that Rowling was just taking a bit of
artistic license (via dramatic gestures such as hand-clapping or
finger-snapping), while not really intending to give an example of
genuine wandless magic.
You want a legal document written by lawyers, not a set of seven fantasy
novels. Rowling describes the hand movements, to show a wand isn't used.
Post by gjw
Someone asked her about it, and as I recall she said that you can do
unfocused, uncontrolled magic without a wand (she even mentioned Aunt
Marge) but that to do "really good spells", you needed a wand.
This has been mentioned already, for millions of times on this thread!

I don't dispute that the most difficult of spells require a wand; but that
leaves an awful lot of very useful magic that can be done with the fingers.


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
--
Yay! We've got the Ashes back!
gjw
2005-09-12 23:02:58 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 18:21:25 BST, Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Post by gjw
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Post by Troels Forchhammer
Harry does, in OotP-1, do a /Lumos/ that lights up his wand even if he
isn't holding it.
That's already on the list from a few posts back...
1.17 Quirrel conjures ropes by snapping his fingers
1.17 Dumbledore changes banners by clapping his hands
2.17 Harry uses Fawkes' power to levitate three people
3.02 Harry transforms his Aunt Marge into a balloon
3.02 Harry makes a door open merely by approaching it
3.03 barman Tom lights a fire by clicking his fingers
3.05 Lupin conjures shivering flames cupped in his hands
3.19 Snape accios the ends of the cords binding Lupin
4.25 Barty Jr (impersonating Moody) accios a parchment
4.33 Voldemort blackens Wormtail's tattoo with one finger,
thus hurting Harry, and summoning his Death Eaters
5.01 Harry uses Lumos to locate his wand in the dark
We can throw out the Fawkes example and the accidental magic of
blowing up his aunt, but the rest work.
Why is it okay to do wandless magic accidentally, but as soon as
someone suggests it can be deliberate, that's claimed impossible?
I am simply attempting the reconcile what the author has written with
what the author has stated in her interviews. She has stated that one
can't perform significant magic without a wand. You can't simply
ignore what she has to say on the subject just because it doesn't fit
your own interpretation of the books she wrote.
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Post by gjw
Otherwise, there's the danger that Rowling was just taking a bit of
artistic license (via dramatic gestures such as hand-clapping or
finger-snapping), while not really intending to give an example of
genuine wandless magic.
You want a legal document written by lawyers, not a set of seven fantasy
novels. Rowling describes the hand movements, to show a wand isn't used.
That is your interpretation. Given her answer to the question about
wandless magic, I think it's more likely that those incidents are
simply examples of artistic license, designed simply to make the
scenes more dramatic - or, if you prefer, JKR getting a bit sloppy.
It's hard to believe that she intends to deliberately show an example
of something that she has said is impossible.
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
2005-09-13 17:05:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by gjw
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Post by gjw
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
1.17 Quirrel conjures ropes by snapping his fingers
1.17 Dumbledore changes banners by clapping his hands
3.03 barman Tom lights a fire by clicking his fingers
4.33 Voldemort blackens Wormtail's tattoo with one finger,
thus hurting Harry, and summoning his Death Eaters
3.19 Snape accios the ends of the cords binding Lupin
For all of these examples, Rowling makes it very clear that no
wand was used, by describing the action of fingers or hands.
Post by gjw
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Post by gjw
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
3.02 Harry transforms his Aunt Marge into a balloon
3.02 Harry makes a door open merely by approaching it
5.01 Harry uses Lumos to locate his wand in the dark
For all of these examples, Rowling makes it very clear that no
wand was used, since Harry did not have his wand at the time.
Post by gjw
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Post by gjw
We can throw out the Fawkes example and the accidental magic of
blowing up his aunt, but the rest work.
Why is it okay to do wandless magic accidentally, but as soon as
someone suggests it can be deliberate, that's claimed impossible?
I am simply attempting the reconcile what the author has written with
what the author has stated in her interviews.
According to her interviews, seven times forty equals one thousand.
Post by gjw
She has stated that one can't perform significant magic without a wand.
You can't simply ignore what she has to say on the subject just because
it doesn't fit your own interpretation of the books she wrote.
I'm not ignoring anything - for the millionth time I don't dispute that
the most difficult of spells require a wand; but that leaves an awful
lot of very useful magic that can be done with just the fingers.
Post by gjw
Given her answer to the question about wandless magic, I think it's more
likely that those incidents are simply examples of artistic license,
designed simply to make the scenes more dramatic - or, if you prefer,
JKR getting a bit sloppy. It's hard to believe that she intends to
deliberately show an example of something that she has said is impossible.
No, she has NOT SAID THAT IT'S IMPOSSIBLE!

She said 'really good magic requires a wand' - for the 1,000,001th time
I don't dispute that the most difficult spells require a wand; but that
leaves an awful lot of very useful magic that can be done with fingers.


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
gjw
2005-09-13 21:15:25 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 18:05:37 BST, Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Post by gjw
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
1.17 Quirrel conjures ropes by snapping his fingers
1.17 Dumbledore changes banners by clapping his hands
3.03 barman Tom lights a fire by clicking his fingers
4.33 Voldemort blackens Wormtail's tattoo with one finger,
thus hurting Harry, and summoning his Death Eaters
3.19 Snape accios the ends of the cords binding Lupin
For all of these examples, Rowling makes it very clear that no
wand was used, by describing the action of fingers or hands.
That doesn't follow. Simply because they made a hand gesture doesn't
mean that they didn't also use their wand.
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Post by gjw
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
3.02 Harry transforms his Aunt Marge into a balloon
3.02 Harry makes a door open merely by approaching it
5.01 Harry uses Lumos to locate his wand in the dark
For all of these examples, Rowling makes it very clear that no
wand was used, since Harry did not have his wand at the time.
JKR used the Aunt Marge incident as an example of the kind of
accidental, unfocused magic that _can_ happen without a wand.

The Lumos spell affected only the wand itself, nothing beyond it.

The cupboard door opening was part of the Aunt Marge incident, and
happened while Harry was very emotional.
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
According to her interviews, seven times forty equals one thousand.
Post by gjw
She has stated that one can't perform significant magic without a wand.
You can't simply ignore what she has to say on the subject just because
it doesn't fit your own interpretation of the books she wrote.
I'm not ignoring anything - for the millionth time I don't dispute that
the most difficult of spells require a wand; but that leaves an awful
lot of very useful magic that can be done with just the fingers.
That's not necessarily what the books show. The books show only rare
incidents of people performing magic without a wand, and then usually
under very emotional circumstances. (Unless you automatically assume
that the incidents which included hand gestures did not also involve a
wand, something that is, IMO, unwise.)
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Post by gjw
Given her answer to the question about wandless magic, I think it's more
likely that those incidents are simply examples of artistic license,
designed simply to make the scenes more dramatic - or, if you prefer,
JKR getting a bit sloppy. It's hard to believe that she intends to
deliberately show an example of something that she has said is impossible.
No, she has NOT SAID THAT IT'S IMPOSSIBLE!
She said 'really good magic requires a wand' - for the 1,000,001th time
I don't dispute that the most difficult spells require a wand;
No, that's not what she said. She did not say that only the most
difficult spells require a wand. In reply to the question " "Do you
need a Wand to do Magic?". her exact words were:

"You can do unfocused and uncontrolled magic without a wand (for
instance when Harry blows up Aunt Marge), but to do really good
spells, yes, you need a wand."

Do you think that conjuring up ropes out of nowhere or changing
banners aren't "really good spells"? Hence, given her interview
comments, I have to assume that she meant that those spells involved
wands, even though the wand is not directly mentioned at the time.

We all know that Harry has done a sort of 'wandless magic' even before
he knew he was a wizard. He ended up on a roof when being chased. His
hair grew back when it was cut. He freed the snake at the zoo. He
blew up Aunt Marge. JKR's point is that these weren't deliberate
spells, only uncontrolled, emotional outbursts that expressed
themselves in magical ways.

Until she tells us otherwise, I interpret her term "really good
spells" in a conservative way, to mean any spell which is deliberately
cast and would have a predictable, meaningful result. Personally, I
would be willing to also throw in the most elementary spells learned
in the first year students - but I can't because we still haven't seen
any of the Trio manage to do so much as float a feather without a
wand, and they are entering their final year at Hogwarts. Nor have we
seen a single class lesson teaching how to perform magic without a
wand. This is notable, because we _have_ seen lessons on how to
perform non-verbal magic. Hence, we know that it's possible to cast a
spell non-verbally, but we do not know that it is possible to cast a
meaningful spell without a wand.

Any solid evidence of significant "wandless magic" will have to show
an incident in which the person did not have a wand with them at the
time, an incident which didn't happen accidentally or while under
great emotional stress (such as Aunt Marge), and an incident which
didn't happen to an extremely young wizard (whose magical skills seem
to be out of control).

So far, probably the best evidence of that would be Tom Riddle's young
displays of magic at the orphanage. He seems to have been controlling
them fairly well. But we aren't told enough details about the
incidents to be positive. (His situation is also complicated by his
youth, and by the fact that he, like Dumbledore, is far more powerful
than the average wizard.)
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
2005-09-14 17:42:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by gjw
That doesn't follow.
Sigh.

My dear fellow, life is too short to argue any further at ever greater
length with you on this forthright subject. Believe what you will.

I look forward to reading your posts on other topics.


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
2005-09-13 16:54:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by gjw
Post by Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
3.02 Harry makes a door open merely by approaching it
But the problem with your list is that we don't know whether the
person had a wand with them when they cast the spell. It's possible
that as long as you have a wand on your person, you can cast the spell
without actually pointing the wand
I've just realised that for this example, Harry's wand was in his trunk,
and Vernon had locked the trunk away in the cupboard under the stairs.


Blon Fel Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
--
Free Margaret Blaine now!
Loading...