What in the books says Dementors *can't* fly?

[Paul W. Lints]

I am merely curious. The only mention I can recall of Dementors and
locomotion is the fact that they "glide", as opposed to running. I am not
quite as acquainted with the books as pretty much everyone here, so I was
wondering if there is specific mention of how Dementors travel. Of course,
I saw the movies before reading...so I was already acquainted with the
concept of flying Dementors before reading the books. I still didn't catch
anything that even implied that they were landlocked.

--
Paul W. Lints UIN:25030144
***@deleteme.csupomona.edu

[Morten Holm]

Post by Paul W. Lints
I am merely curious. The only mention I can recall of Dementors and
locomotion is the fact that they "glide", as opposed to running. I am not
quite as acquainted with the books as pretty much everyone here, so I was
wondering if there is specific mention of how Dementors travel. Of course,
I saw the movies before reading...so I was already acquainted with the
concept of flying Dementors before reading the books. I still didn't catch
anything that even implied that they were landlocked.

Well, if I could fly, I would do it all the time. From book 1,
so to speak. :-) Maybe Dementors all have high anxiety, and
only fly when they are in large numbers?

[Sleepy]

Post by Paul W. Lints
I am merely curious. The only mention I can recall of Dementors and
locomotion is the fact that they "glide", as opposed to running. I am not
quite as acquainted with the books as pretty much everyone here, so I was
wondering if there is specific mention of how Dementors travel. Of course,
I saw the movies before reading...so I was already acquainted with the
concept of flying Dementors before reading the books. I still didn't catch
anything that even implied that they were landlocked.
--
Paul W. Lints UIN:25030144

JKR says the Dementors glide as you say but never are they described as
flying or being above anyone.
In PoA when the Dementors attack Harry during the Quidditch game they are
described "a hundred Dementors, their hidden faces pointing up at him, were
standing below." Later on Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle and Marcus Flint dress up as
Dementors to scare Harry during a game of Quidditch. They are standing on
the ground when they do it - not flying on brooms. When Harrys Patronus
attacks the Dementors to save him and Sirius it gallops across the lake
which implies again the Dementors are at ground level.

[Paul W. Lints]

Post by Sleepy

Post by Paul W. Lints
I am merely curious. The only mention I can recall of Dementors and
locomotion is the fact that they "glide", as opposed to running. I am not
quite as acquainted with the books as pretty much everyone here, so I was
wondering if there is specific mention of how Dementors travel. Of course,
I saw the movies before reading...so I was already acquainted with the
concept of flying Dementors before reading the books. I still didn't catch
anything that even implied that they were landlocked.
--
Paul W. Lints UIN:25030144

JKR says the Dementors glide as you say but never are they described as
flying or being above anyone.
In PoA when the Dementors attack Harry during the Quidditch game they are
described "a hundred Dementors, their hidden faces pointing up at him, were
standing below." Later on Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle and Marcus Flint dress up as
Dementors to scare Harry during a game of Quidditch. They are standing on
the ground when they do it - not flying on brooms. When Harrys Patronus
attacks the Dementors to save him and Sirius it gallops across the lake
which implies again the Dementors are at ground level.

To the first, the Dementors were sucking emotion and staying below where
everyone was looking because they could stay longer incognito. Malfoy,
Crabbe, Goyle, and Flint were on the ground because I imagine one would get
in a lot more trouble for flying a broom through the middle of a Quiddich
match than for standing below the pitch. Harry's Patronus attacks the
Dementors at ground level because it would be rather hard for Dementors to
kiss any of the people in danger if they were flying above them, as opposed
to hovering directly over them. I am possibly wrong, but there are very
simple reasons for what you say even if Dementors can fly. So I guess I am
still waiting for someone to come up with something better.

--
Paul W. Lints UIN:25030144
***@deleteme.csupomona.edu

[OLi EVIL]

How about we place it in the bracket of it not affecting the story line
at all???

and being placed their to make the movie more action packed when there
are groups of them chasing him over the quidditch pitch. it looks more
malevolent if they are swooping from all around rather than merely
floating a few inches off the ground.

I think of them kind of like the ghost at Hogwarts since they can move
up down left right etc unhindered by anything.

[Paul W. Lints]

On Mon, 24 Jan 2005, OLi EVIL wrote:

I was just curious, as it is a point I have seen many people complain about
when talking about the PoA movie. As an aside, I would think that Dementors
would have a very hard time doing their job if they couldn't fly. Any
wizard with flying ability (broom, avian animagi, Super Jumping Ability)
could evade Dementors. What point would be served by having Dementors
surround the school if any mouthbreather with a broom could just fly right
over them?

Post by OLi EVIL
How about we place it in the bracket of it not affecting the story line
at all???
and being placed their to make the movie more action packed when there
are groups of them chasing him over the quidditch pitch. it looks more
malevolent if they are swooping from all around rather than merely
floating a few inches off the ground.
I think of them kind of like the ghost at Hogwarts since they can move
up down left right etc unhindered by anything.

--
Paul W. Lints UIN:25030144
***@deleteme.csupomona.edu

[Matthew Stoton]

In article

Post by Paul W. Lints
I was just curious, as it is a point I have seen many people complain about
when talking about the PoA movie. As an aside, I would think that Dementors
would have a very hard time doing their job if they couldn't fly. Any
wizard with flying ability (broom, avian animagi, Super Jumping Ability)
could evade Dementors. What point would be served by having Dementors
surround the school if any mouthbreather with a broom could just fly right
over them?

Post by OLi EVIL
How about we place it in the bracket of it not affecting the story line
at all???
and being placed their to make the movie more action packed when there
are groups of them chasing him over the quidditch pitch. it looks more
malevolent if they are swooping from all around rather than merely
floating a few inches off the ground.
I think of them kind of like the ghost at Hogwarts since they can move
up down left right etc unhindered by anything.

--
Paul W. Lints UIN:25030144

It would seem dementors are only limited by line of sight. Even without
eye-contact they can drain the general happiness of an area. I wouldn't
imagine flight a good mode of escape unless you could drive them off
yourself, something Sirius hasn't shown to be very good at atleast after
being around them for so long and having nothing happy in his life.

[Paul W. Lints]

Post by Matthew Stoton
It would seem dementors are only limited by line of sight. Even without
eye-contact they can drain the general happiness of an area. I wouldn't
imagine flight a good mode of escape unless you could drive them off
yourself, something Sirius hasn't shown to be very good at atleast after
being around them for so long and having nothing happy in his life.

They can drain the happiness of the surrounding area, but that is hardly
debilitating. Flying would work perfectly well for anyone who doesn't go
unconcsious whenever a Dementor gets near (and so far, we have only met one
such). So the only person Dementors could effectively capture would be
pre-PoA Harry, unless it was a large enough group of Dementors to cause the
target to pass out (or enough to completely surround the mark, who needs to
have no way to become airborne).

--
Paul W. Lints UIN:25030144
***@deleteme.csupomona.edu

[Sleepy]

Post by Paul W. Lints

Post by Sleepy
JKR says the Dementors glide as you say but never are they described as
flying or being above anyone.
In PoA when the Dementors attack Harry during the Quidditch game they are
described "a hundred Dementors, their hidden faces pointing up at him, were
standing below." Later on Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle and Marcus Flint dress up as
Dementors to scare Harry during a game of Quidditch. They are standing on
the ground when they do it - not flying on brooms. When Harrys Patronus
attacks the Dementors to save him and Sirius it gallops across the lake
which implies again the Dementors are at ground level.

To the first, the Dementors were sucking emotion and staying below where
everyone was looking because they could stay longer incognito.

One hundred Dementors invade a Quidditch pitch "incognito" !!!!!
Dont do drugs pal - its bad for you.

[Paul W. Lints]

Post by Sleepy

Post by Paul W. Lints

Post by Sleepy
JKR says the Dementors glide as you say but never are they described as
flying or being above anyone.
In PoA when the Dementors attack Harry during the Quidditch game they are
described "a hundred Dementors, their hidden faces pointing up at him, were
standing below." Later on Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle and Marcus Flint dress up as
Dementors to scare Harry during a game of Quidditch. They are standing on
the ground when they do it - not flying on brooms. When Harrys Patronus
attacks the Dementors to save him and Sirius it gallops across the lake
which implies again the Dementors are at ground level.

To the first, the Dementors were sucking emotion and staying below where
everyone was looking because they could stay longer incognito.

One hundred Dementors invade a Quidditch pitch "incognito" !!!!!
Dont do drugs pal - its bad for you.

Yeah, because they were noticed before Harry fell off their broom. That's
why Dumbledore waited until Harry was in *Mortal Peril* before driving off
the Dementors he so hates. Flying around the Quiddich players would have
had them noticed and driven off within a moment or two. So unless you are
proposing that they magically appeared out of nowhere the moment before
Harry went unconscious (and even if you are proposing that, seeing as it is
even more unreasonable than my suggestion), get a life, get off the drugs,
and think before you send your messages. Or go jump off a cliff. I
honesly couldn't care either way.

--
Paul W. Lints UIN:25030144
***@deleteme.csupomona.edu

[Toon]

On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:19:08 -0800, "Paul W. Lints"

Post by Paul W. Lints
To the first, the Dementors were sucking emotion and staying below where
everyone was looking because they could stay longer incognito. Malfoy,
Crabbe, Goyle, and Flint were on the ground because I imagine one would get
in a lot more trouble for flying a broom through the middle of a Quiddich
match than for standing below the pitch. Harry's Patronus attacks the
Dementors at ground level because it would be rather hard for Dementors to
kiss any of the people in danger if they were flying above them, as opposed
to hovering directly over them. I am possibly wrong, but there are very
simple reasons for what you say even if Dementors can fly. So I guess I am
still waiting for someone to come up with something better.

There's the famous painting of a guy who seems to be hovering over his
gal as they kiss. So, you can fly and kiss.

[Troels Forchhammer]

In message

Post by Paul W. Lints
I am merely curious. The only mention I can recall of Dementors
and locomotion is the fact that they "glide", as opposed to
running.

During, I suppose, the Hearing in OotP?

That, at least, is where Harry describes their locomotion in detail:

"Whatever Mrs Figg might say, it sounded to him as though the
most she had ever seen was a picture of a Dementor, and a
picture could never convey the truth of what these beings were
like: the eerie way they moved, hovering inches over the
ground; or the rotting smell of them; or that terrible
rattling noise they made as they sucked on the surrounding
air ..."

This, to me, implies that 'hovering inches over the ground' is a basic
characteristic of Dementors.

But even before that, I was convinced that the Dementor's didn't fly.
I'm not sure exactly why -- probably in part due to the descriptions of
them 'gliding' which didn't, to me, imply flying (though I do know
about hang-gliders), but probably also because they were never shown to
move up in the air; instead they were, in PoA, shown to move around
water rather than over it:

"And then Harry saw them. Dementors, at least a hundred of
them, gliding in a black mass around the lake toward them. He
spun around, the familiar, icy cold penetrating his insides,
fog starting to obscure his vision; more were appearing out
of the darkness on every side; they were encircling them ..."
(PoA-20 'The Dementor's Kiss')

And again, more clearly, when Harry is clearer in the head:

" And there were the Dementors. They were emerging out of the
darkness from every direction, gliding around the edges of
the lake ... They were moving away from where Harry stood, to
the opposite bank ... He wouldn't have to get near them ..."
(PoA-21 'Hermione's Secret')

I suppose that all of these things, when put together, made me sure
that Dementors are landlocked even before Harry's more specific thought
statement in OotP, though I can't find anywhere before OotP that
specifically says that they're landlocked (the boggart-Dementor Harry
trains with in PoA 'stepped from the box and started to sweep silently
toward Harry' and the boggart-Dementor in the third task in GoF
stumbled, but as these were really boggarts, I am not sure that we can
infer from them to Dementors in general).

[Paul W. Lints]

Post by Troels Forchhammer
In message

Post by Paul W. Lints
I am merely curious. The only mention I can recall of Dementors
and locomotion is the fact that they "glide", as opposed to
running.

During, I suppose, the Hearing in OotP?

<snip Phoenix quote>

Post by Troels Forchhammer
But even before that, I was convinced that the Dementor's didn't fly.
I'm not sure exactly why -- probably in part due to the descriptions of
them 'gliding' which didn't, to me, imply flying (though I do know
about hang-gliders), but probably also because they were never shown to
move up in the air; instead they were, in PoA, shown to move around

What I don't understand is this: if Dementors are landlocked, then why was
Sirius so scared of them? He has shown how easily he can afford a broom
(Old Blood counts for something, it would seem :)). If it was as simple as
flying away at the first sign of Dementors (seeing as they would have to
glide towards him, not having the ability to Apparate). Polyjuice potion or
even a Muggle disguise could keep him out of sight of the Ministry, and
flying could evade any Dementors that show up. It just seems that they
become a lot less effective at patrol duty if they are landlocked. As I
said in another thread: if they can't fly, what is the point in them
surrounding Hogwarts as protection? It is not as if Hogwarts has
anti-flying charms.

Post by Troels Forchhammer
I suppose that all of these things, when put together, made me sure
that Dementors are landlocked even before Harry's more specific thought
statement in OotP, though I can't find anywhere before OotP that
specifically says that they're landlocked (the boggart-Dementor Harry
trains with in PoA 'stepped from the box and started to sweep silently
toward Harry' and the boggart-Dementor in the third task in GoF
stumbled, but as these were really boggarts, I am not sure that we can
infer from them to Dementors in general).

Seeing as the stumbling of the boggart in the third task in GoF is what let
Harry know that it was, in fact, a boggart, it is probably safe that we
can't use its motion to infer anything from Dementors in general. But you
bring up some very good points in your post. I guess I am harmed
irreparably by seeing the PoA movie first :).

--
Paul W. Lints UIN:25030144
***@deleteme.csupomona.edu

[Sleepy]

Post by Paul W. Lints
What I don't understand is this: if Dementors are landlocked, then why was
Sirius so scared of them? He has shown how easily he can afford a broom
(Old Blood counts for something, it would seem :)). If it was as simple as
flying away at the first sign of Dementors (seeing as they would have to
glide towards him, not having the ability to Apparate). Polyjuice potion or
even a Muggle disguise could keep him out of sight of the Ministry, and
flying could evade any Dementors that show up. It just seems that they
become a lot less effective at patrol duty if they are landlocked. As I
said in another thread: if they can't fly, what is the point in them
surrounding Hogwarts as protection? It is not as if Hogwarts has
anti-flying charms.

In PoA (the book) when the Dementors attack Harry at the game
they are on the ground but their presence is so powerful they still affect
him on his broom and make him pass out. But that doesnt really have
much visual impact or make it obvious why everyone is so scared of them
- it works better if they are airborne and thats why they changed it for the
film
and the Patronus had to match I guess.

[Troels Forchhammer]

In message
<snip>

Post by Paul W. Lints

Post by Troels Forchhammer
But even before that, I was convinced that the Dementor's didn't fly.
I'm not sure exactly why -- probably in part due to the descriptions
of them 'gliding' which didn't, to me, imply flying (though I do know
about hang-gliders), but probably also because they were never shown
to move up in the air; instead they were, in PoA, shown to move

What I don't understand is this: if Dementors are landlocked, then
why was Sirius so scared of them?

I think Sleepy has a good point there, pointing out that the effects of the
Dementors work well on Harry while he is flying and they, unmistakenly, are
on the ground.

However, the sequence of events are not entirely clear -- Harry was racing
towards the Snitch, but so was Cedric, and while Harry fell off his broom
Cedric caught the Golden Snitch -- certainly not affected more by the
Dementors than he can continue flying, and Black had already demonstrated
that he was particularly immune to the effect of the Dementors (Fudge says
as much at one point, and of course Black had managed to escape).

All in all I don't think that they could have counted on Black being
incapacitated by the Dementors if he was flying above them at some height,
and it ought to have been a reasonable conjecture that he might break into a
wizarding home and steal a broom.

All in all I think that either the Dementors must have been able to detect a
flying Black if he passed over their heads (and thus still be able to work
towards protecting Hogwarts), or we've got one of those minor plot-holes
(one of the kind that doesn't really matter because the situation is
hypothetical anyway -- Black did not fly across the Dementors).

Post by Paul W. Lints
He has shown how easily he can afford a broom (Old Blood counts for
something, it would seem :)).

He didn't have any problems buying a broom anonymously, but I think he would
have found it somewhat more difficult to have one delivered to himself ;-)

But as I suggested above, he would only have to break in to a wizarding home
and steal a broom.

Post by Paul W. Lints
If it was as simple as flying away at the first sign of Dementors
(seeing as they would have to glide towards him, not having the
ability to Apparate). Polyjuice potion or even a Muggle disguise
could keep him out of sight of the Ministry, and flying could evade
any Dementors that show up.

That's a good point -- one that ought to have worked anyway, I think.

Post by Paul W. Lints
It just seems that they become a lot less effective at patrol duty
if they are landlocked.

With that I certainly agree.

Post by Paul W. Lints
As I said in another thread: if they can't fly, what is the point
in them surrounding Hogwarts as protection?

He would have to land to do anything against Harry, so if they could detect
his passage, it might still be a whole lot better than nothing.

Post by Paul W. Lints
It is not as if Hogwarts has anti-flying charms.

I suppose we could always postulate that one cannot fly across the walls,
though that would, IMO, be leaving the realm of speculation and entering the
realm of fan-fiction: even speculations ought to have at least a little
basis in the books ;-)

<snip>

Post by Paul W. Lints
I guess I am harmed irreparably by seeing the PoA movie first :)

Well, as long as it isn't worse than that (for what it's worth, my 13 year
old was outraged by the flying Dementors and he insists that they cannot fly
in the books -- though it should of course be noted that he has mainly read
the Danish versions).

[Sleepy]

Post by Troels Forchhammer

Post by Paul W. Lints

Post by Troels Forchhammer
But even before that, I was convinced that the Dementor's didn't fly.
I'm not sure exactly why -- probably in part due to the descriptions
of them 'gliding' which didn't, to me, imply flying (though I do know
about hang-gliders), but probably also because they were never shown
to move up in the air; instead they were, in PoA, shown to move

What I don't understand is this: if Dementors are landlocked, then
why was Sirius so scared of them?

I think Sleepy has a good point there, pointing out that the effects of the
Dementors work well on Harry while he is flying and they, unmistakenly, are
on the ground.
However, the sequence of events are not entirely clear -- Harry was racing
towards the Snitch, but so was Cedric, and while Harry fell off his broom
Cedric caught the Golden Snitch -- certainly not affected more by the
Dementors than he can continue flying, and Black had already demonstrated
that he was particularly immune to the effect of the Dementors (Fudge says
as much at one point, and of course Black had managed to escape).

The Dementors effect is stonger on Harry because he has horrors in his past
that others dont - on the train Hermione and Ron are not affected to the
extent
that Harry is. Likewise Cedric Diggory can still play while Harry faints and
falls off
his broom.

Post by Troels Forchhammer

Post by Paul W. Lints
As I said in another thread: if they can't fly, what is the point
in them surrounding Hogwarts as protection?

Theres little logic in using the Dementors as guards at all. They're blind
and
easily fooled by a polyjuice potion. Death Eaters could put some happless
victim under the Imperius curse - take them into Azkaban to visit a fellow
Death Eater and swap them as Barty Crouch did. Sirius managed to escape
too. I dont think JKR thought them out that well - they're just monsters and
it reinforces the fact the books are mainly written for children.

[Toon]

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:59:51 GMT, "Sleepy"

Post by Sleepy

Post by Paul W. Lints
As I said in another thread: if they can't fly, what is the point
in them surrounding Hogwarts as protection?

Theres little logic in using the Dementors as guards at all. They're blind
and
easily fooled by a polyjuice potion. Death Eaters could put some happless
victim under the Imperius curse - take them into Azkaban to visit a fellow
Death Eater and swap them as Barty Crouch did. Sirius managed to escape
too. I dont think JKR thought them out that well - they're just monsters and
it reinforces the fact the books are mainly written for children.

Yeha, considering Sisiurs escaped them once before, what good are they
at stopping him? Logic dictates whatever he did to escape Azkaban,
can be repeated in front of the Hogwarts Dementors.

[Eric Bohlman]

Post by Toon
Yeha, considering Sisiurs escaped them once before, what good are they
at stopping him? Logic dictates whatever he did to escape Azkaban,
can be repeated in front of the Hogwarts Dementors.

Wasn't it Fudge's decision to post them at Hogwarts? To the bureaucratic
mind, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results
isn't insanity, it's Standard Operating Procedure.

[Toon]

Post by Eric Bohlman

Post by Toon
Yeha, considering Sisiurs escaped them once before, what good are they
at stopping him? Logic dictates whatever he did to escape Azkaban,
can be repeated in front of the Hogwarts Dementors.

Wasn't it Fudge's decision to post them at Hogwarts? To the bureaucratic
mind, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results
isn't insanity, it's Standard Operating Procedure.

Oh right. I forgot Fudge is a moron and thought they'd do better this
time.

[Susan Sontag in Hell]

"Troels Forchhammer" <***@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote in message news:***@individual.net...
<snip>

Post by Troels Forchhammer

Post by Paul W. Lints
As I said in another thread: if they can't fly, what is the point
in them surrounding Hogwarts as protection?

He would have to land to do anything against Harry, so if they could detect
his passage, it might still be a whole lot better than nothing.

Post by Paul W. Lints
It is not as if Hogwarts has anti-flying charms.

I suppose we could always postulate that one cannot fly across the walls,
though that would, IMO, be leaving the realm of speculation and entering the
realm of fan-fiction: even speculations ought to have at least a little
basis in the books ;-)
<snip>

Doesn't Charlie's friends fly over Hogwarts when they take Norbert to
Romania?

[Toon]

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 05:14:41 -0800, "Susan Sontag in Hell"

Post by Troels Forchhammer
<snip>

Post by Troels Forchhammer

Post by Paul W. Lints
As I said in another thread: if they can't fly, what is the point
in them surrounding Hogwarts as protection?

He would have to land to do anything against Harry, so if they could detect
his passage, it might still be a whole lot better than nothing.

Post by Paul W. Lints
It is not as if Hogwarts has anti-flying charms.

I suppose we could always postulate that one cannot fly across the walls,
though that would, IMO, be leaving the realm of speculation and entering the
realm of fan-fiction: even speculations ought to have at least a little
basis in the books ;-)
<snip>

Doesn't Charlie's friends fly over Hogwarts when they take Norbert to
Romania?

Yes. He has like 3 friends.

[Don Reeves]

On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 09:22:48 -0800, "Paul W. Lints"

Post by Paul W. Lints
I am merely curious. The only mention I can recall of Dementors and
locomotion is the fact that they "glide", as opposed to running. I am not
quite as acquainted with the books as pretty much everyone here, so I was
wondering if there is specific mention of how Dementors travel. Of course,
I saw the movies before reading...so I was already acquainted with the
concept of flying Dementors before reading the books. I still didn't catch
anything that even implied that they were landlocked.

Actually, in OotP after the attack on Harry and Dudley, one "swooped
away, batlike and defeated." The other "soared away and was absorbed
into the darkness." If you consider swooping and soaring to be flying,
then they can fly. I came to the conclusion that they fly when they
need to travel larger distances, but glide over shorter distances.

Don Reeves

[Toon]

On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 09:22:48 -0800, "Paul W. Lints"

Post by Paul W. Lints
I am merely curious. The only mention I can recall of Dementors and
locomotion is the fact that they "glide", as opposed to running. I am not
quite as acquainted with the books as pretty much everyone here, so I was
wondering if there is specific mention of how Dementors travel. Of course,
I saw the movies before reading...so I was already acquainted with the
concept of flying Dementors before reading the books. I still didn't catch
anything that even implied that they were landlocked.

Thye feed off happiness. You need happiness (and fairy dust) to fly.
Assumign they can get fairy dust, they're still not happy. And
thinking sad thoughts makes one sink, just so you know.