Harry behaving like a spoilt brat?

[eggplant107]

Its always "Why me?" or "Why not me?"

And if it had been me I'd be asking the very same questions, except
I'd be one hell of a lot more resentful. For one of the best parts of
book 5 was when Harry started to smash up Dumbledore's office, he
certainly deserved it, in fact I wish Harry had smashed him in the
face.

A few times I caught myself thinking
"no matter how much I disliked my teacher,
if I behaved like that when I was in
school I'd have got a well deserved
damn good hiding!"

I don't think it's quite the same thing, in the last 5 years at school
3 of Harry's teachers had tried to kill him and another teacher
removed all the bones in his arm and attempted to erase his memory and
turn him into a vegetable. Harry had every reason to distrust Snape
and his Occlumency lessons, especially when they seemed to make things
worse. Even now after finishing the book I'm not convinced Snape was
trying to help, I think he may have been deliberately sabotaging the
lessons.

Harry come across almost throughout
the whole book as an arrogant spoilt
anoying little git

I have found that when my mother, father and godfather get murdered,
and I have to cut my hand open and write with my own blood, and then I
get tied to a tombstone and tortured so horribly I want to die, I tend
to get a bit grumpy. What about you, would you do better?

Eggplant

[Troels Forchhammer]

Post by eggplant107

Its always "Why me?" or "Why not me?"

And if it had been me I'd be asking the very same questions,
except I'd be one hell of a lot more resentful.

<snip>

I agree entirely. It seems to be quite popular for some adults to
demand that Harry should behave better than themselves -- he is a kid
who has been through some extremely traumatic experiences, and that he
is capable of behaving reasonably most of the time is a small mircacle,
and that he still has a conscience to be guided by is, IMO, a major
miracle: there is much to learn for Snape in Harry's behaviour.

[Richard Eney]

In article <***@212.242.40.196>,
Troels Forchhammer <***@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
<snip>

Post by Troels Forchhammer
I agree entirely. It seems to be quite popular for some adults to
demand that Harry should behave better than themselves -- he is a kid
who has been through some extremely traumatic experiences, and that he
is capable of behaving reasonably most of the time is a small mircacle,
and that he still has a conscience to be guided by is, IMO, a major
miracle: there is much to learn for Snape in Harry's behaviour.

Right up to that last line, I was with you.
But we don't know enough about Snape's backstory to claim he
hasn't had as much trauma in his life as Harry has.

=Tamar

[Troels Forchhammer]

[Harry's behaviour]

Post by Richard Eney

Post by Troels Forchhammer
that he still has a conscience to be guided by is, IMO, a
major miracle: there is much to learn for Snape in Harry's
behaviour.

Right up to that last line, I was with you.
But we don't know enough about Snape's backstory to claim he
hasn't had as much trauma in his life as Harry has.

The only thing we can say for sure is that Snape was not orphaned as
early as Harry -- at least not if the scene from 'Seen and Unforeseen'
really are his parents, as I believe.

The glimpses of Snape's childhood we saw in OotP did, however, not, as
I see it, suggest a happy and spoiled childhood (no Draco or Dudley
there). I don't know to what extent they suggested trauma, though if
the abuse of the mother by the father (at that's how I understand it)
was common, it could certainly be traumatic -- and there was also,
IIRC, the suggestion of being abused or bullied by some older sibling.
All of this, however, just points more emphatically at the difference
between Harry and Snape: if Snape's childhood was as unhappy as was
Harry's, there would be even more for him to learn from Harry about
making the right choice anyway: not abusing and demeaning people for
his personal pleasure.

Actually I was thinking of the apparent similarities between Harry's
and Snape's childhoods when I was making the above comment: precisely
because Harry overcomes such odds where Snape failed.

[Richard Eney]

<snip>

Post by Troels Forchhammer

Post by Richard Eney
But we don't know enough about Snape's backstory to claim he
hasn't had as much trauma in his life as Harry has.

The only thing we can say for sure is that Snape was not orphaned as
early as Harry -- at least not if the scene from 'Seen and Unforeseen'
really are his parents, as I believe.
The glimpses of Snape's childhood we saw in OotP did, however, not, as
I see it, suggest a happy and spoiled childhood (no Draco or Dudley
there). I don't know to what extent they suggested trauma, though if
the abuse of the mother by the father (at that's how I understand it)
was common, it could certainly be traumatic -- and there was also,
IIRC, the suggestion of being abused or bullied by some older sibling.

I don't recall any suggestion of older siblings, but that's beside
the main point. What I recall is some open bullying of the woman
who, we assume, took care of him, and seeing him sitting in a room
practicing something that knocks down flies.

Men who bully women rarely stop at also bullying children; thus
I assume that Snape was also bullied as a small child, perhaps by
someone more violent than Vernon or Dudley.

We don't know what spell he was using on those flies; it might have simply
been a "paralyze fly" spell, or it might have been AK. I think we are
intended to assume that it was AK. If it was, then Snape was apparently
taught it (perhaps in 5th year?) or exposed to it, and lived where nobody
would investigate underage magic, even very powerful underage magic such
as an unforgivable curse. (The rule says you can't use it at all, it
isn't forbidden "except for killing vermin".) And Snape at that age also
could summon up enough hatred to make AK work. Either he really hated
flies or he was transferring hatred for someone else to use in the spell.

Post by Troels Forchhammer
All of this, however, just points more emphatically at the difference
between Harry and Snape: if Snape's childhood was as unhappy as was
Harry's, there would be even more for him to learn from Harry about
making the right choice anyway: not abusing and demeaning people for
his personal pleasure.
Actually I was thinking of the apparent similarities between Harry's
and Snape's childhoods when I was making the above comment: precisely
because Harry overcomes such odds where Snape failed.

We don't know enough about Snape's childhood to know how much abuse there
was. I'm sure this is deliberate by JKR; she's given us just enough to
hint at why Snape is the way he is, without giving us enough to be sure
whether he deserves more sympathy than he's been given so far.

=Tamar

[Fish Eye no Miko]

Post by Richard Eney
We don't know what spell he was using on those flies; it might
have simply been a "paralyze fly" spell, or it might have been AK.
I think we are intended to assume that it was AK. If it was, then
Snape was apparently taught it (perhaps in 5th year?) or exposed
to it, and lived where nobody would investigate underage magic,
even very powerful underage magic such as an unforgivable curse.
(The rule says you can't use it at all, it isn't forbidden "except for
killing vermin".)

I thought the Unforgivable were just illegal against humans.

Post by Richard Eney
And Snape at that age also could summon up enough hatred to
make AK work. Either he really hated flies or he was transferring
hatred for someone else to use in the spell.

That'd be my guess.

Post by Richard Eney
We don't know enough about Snape's childhood to know how
much abuse there was. I'm sure this is deliberate by JKR; she's
given us just enough to hint at why Snape is the way he is, without
giving us enough to be sure whether he deserves more sympathy
than he's been given so far.

Indeed. Very clever of her. ^_^

Catherine Johnson.

[Troels Forchhammer]

Post by Troels Forchhammer
<snip>

Post by Troels Forchhammer

Post by Richard Eney
But we don't know enough about Snape's backstory to claim he
hasn't had as much trauma in his life as Harry has.

The only thing we can say for sure is that Snape was not orphaned
as early as Harry -- at least not if the scene from 'Seen and
Unforeseen' really are his parents, as I believe.
The glimpses of Snape's childhood we saw in OotP did, however,
not, as I see it, suggest a happy and spoiled childhood (no Draco
or Dudley there). I don't know to what extent they suggested
trauma, though if the abuse of the mother by the father (at that's
how I understand it) was common, it could certainly be traumatic
-- and there was also, IIRC, the suggestion of being abused or
bullied by some older sibling.

I don't recall any suggestion of older siblings, but that's beside
the main point.

I took a look. What I half-remembered was this line, "a girl was
laughing as a scrawny boy tried to mount a bucking broomstick."
Obviously I remembered the 'scrawny boy' as a young Snape and the girl
to be an older sister, but clearly this isn't necessarily so.

Post by Troels Forchhammer
What I recall is some open bullying of the woman who, we assume,
took care of him,

Since the man is described as "hook-nosed" I suppose it's meant to be
Snape's actual parents.

Post by Troels Forchhammer
and seeing him sitting in a room practicing something that knocks
down flies.

Aye, "shooting down flies" with his wand.

Post by Troels Forchhammer
Men who bully women rarely stop at also bullying children; thus
I assume that Snape was also bullied as a small child,

That was my impression as well.

Post by Troels Forchhammer
perhaps by someone more violent than Vernon or Dudley.

It's possible, I suppose. The memory is of the 'hook-nosed man'
'shouting at a cowering woman': and Vernon is definitely also capable
of shouting as well ;-)

The impression I got was that these memories were meant to parallel the
memories Snape got from Harry earlier of Dudley's bicycle and being
chased up a tree by Ripper the bulldog. If so I'd say that their
situations were not very much different.

Post by Troels Forchhammer
We don't know what spell he was using on those flies; it might
have simply been a "paralyze fly" spell, or it might have been AK.

<snip>

I agree.

I also thought that there were an undercurrent of idle cruelty in the
scene: a kind of bored pleasure in killing (the flies).

Post by Troels Forchhammer

Post by Troels Forchhammer
Actually I was thinking of the apparent similarities between
Harry's and Snape's childhoods when I was making the above
comment: precisely because Harry overcomes such odds where Snape
failed.

We don't know enough about Snape's childhood to know how much
abuse there was. I'm sure this is deliberate by JKR; she's given
us just enough to hint at why Snape is the way he is, without
giving us enough to be sure whether he deserves more sympathy than
he's been given so far.

I'm not quite sure. It gave me the impression that Snape's childhood
were similar to Harry's in level of abuse or unhappiness, and that
we're meant to see how Harry and Snape chose differently, but you might
be right, in which case I hope that we're going to learn more.

[Daryl R Gibson]

Post by Troels Forchhammer
I took a look. What I half-remembered was this line, "a girl was
laughing as a scrawny boy tried to mount a bucking broomstick."
Obviously I remembered the 'scrawny boy' as a young Snape and the girl
to be an older sister, but clearly this isn't necessarily so.

Funny.....I always assumed that this girl was Lilly.

I also assumed, although it's not written anywhere, (and likely not
even true):

1. Snape was treated badly by an abusive father and possibly (although
not certainly) by his mother; I suspect his mother treated him all
right, where his father treated him about the same way as his mother
was treated by his father -- with contempt. Could it be that Snape
learned the dark arts with a desire to punish his father?

2. Snape had few friends as a child. Sirius says he "hung around"
slitherins who became deatheaters, but the fact that he is alone after
the test suggests that he was a loner. I suspect he was hanging around
the mauraders because he secretly wanted to be included -- although he
may have just been nosy and wanted to hear what they were saying.

3. Sirius may have been Snape's friend, and turned from him to James
when he was admitted to Hogwarts and was not sorted into Slytherin.
The degree of hatred which they have for each other suggests that it's
an old wound -- and perhaps it's more than just the way Snape was
treated when he was in school. Nothing could explain this more than if
Snape's friendship with Sirius -- both from Slytherin familes -- were
damaged when Sirius was sorted into Gryffindor and took up with new
friends, leaving Snape alone.

4. Snape had a crush on Lilly, but she went to James -- the same as
Sirius may have. This explains Snape's hatred of James, and
vice-versa, more clearly than any other scenario; James liked Lilly,
so did Snape. Lilly spurned Snape, and went with James.

5. Snape went with the deatheaters because he needed to "belong." He
pulled away because he intercepted information suggesting that Lilly's
son would be killed, and possibly Lilly as well. He bravely went to
Dumbledore with the information.

6. While he was in school, Snape was befriended by Dumbledore. Why
else would he have gone to him with information? Obviously, to save
his own skin -- but he could have easily done nothing, or gone to the
mininstry. The fact is that he trusted Dumbledore, and that indicates
there was some sort of relationship there.

7. Snape is described as being a odd boy with an interest in the dark
arts. I assume that part of the reason why Luna Lovegood is in book 5
is as an object lesson to point out how Luna, even through she's odd,
can grow when she is involved in a group; as she belongs, she gets
more normal, although she never gets *really* normal. She is, to use a
phrase, the anti-Snape.

All assumptions, unprovable as of yet, probably quite wrong, but still
interesting.

Daryl

[Q]

Post by Troels Forchhammer
The glimpses of Snape's childhood we saw in OotP did, however, not, as
I see it, suggest a happy and spoiled childhood (no Draco or Dudley
there).

draco may be spoiled, but that doesn't mean he's never been mistreated
- in the cos movie, at least, we see his father as a tyrannical bully
with a quick and vicious temper. at the very least i don't think
draco's ever going to be able achieve enough to win his father's love
and approval - and at the worst, i'd definitely believe there have
been more than a few scenes in the malfoy household to parallel the
ones harry saw of snape's dad yelling at him and his mother.

otoh, i was really surprised to hear rowling say she's always felt
sorry for dudley. the kid's an unredeeming bully, and if he has any
sort of private pain we can sympathize with she's never let us see it.

Q
doesn't really mind this though, as petunia's the only dursley i'm
really anxious to learn more about in the next book

[Dark Magic]

Post by Q

Post by Troels Forchhammer
The glimpses of Snape's childhood we saw in OotP did, however, not, as
I see it, suggest a happy and spoiled childhood (no Draco or Dudley
there).

draco may be spoiled, but that doesn't mean he's never been mistreated
- in the cos movie, at least, we see his father as a tyrannical bully
with a quick and vicious temper.

Oh, yes. I think Lucius Malfoy treats Draco pretty badly. He might not
beat him or lock him up in a closet, but I'm sure he's one of those fathers
that looks at every failure on Draco's part as a personal affront.

He pressures him to achieve and ridicules him when he doesn't. I have a
feeling that Voldemort is going to use Draco somehow to manipulate Lucius
and that Harry will wind up saving him.

Post by Q
otoh, i was really surprised to hear rowling say she's always felt
sorry for dudley. the kid's an unredeeming bully, and if he has any
sort of private pain we can sympathize with she's never let us see it.

Dudley is ordinary. Harry is special. Dudley isn't overly bright. Harry
is clever. Dudley is rather unattractive. Harry is attractive. Dudley is
jealous. Because Dudley is jealous, Petunia over compensates by treating
Harry worse. She empathizes with him, because Harry and Dudley remind her
of herself and Lily. So, really, Dudley is a nasty bully, but mostly
because Petunia has made him that way. Just like Draco is bigoted because
Lucius is bigoted. I kind of feel sorry for both of them. And I have a
feeling that they might both turn out to be not so bad in the end. Not so
good, mind you. But not so bad.

Shannon

[Troels Forchhammer]

Post by Q

Post by Troels Forchhammer
The glimpses of Snape's childhood we saw in OotP did, however,
not, as I see it, suggest a happy and spoiled childhood (no Draco
or Dudley there).

draco may be spoiled, but that doesn't mean he's never been
mistreated

There isn't anything to suggest that he is mistreated as such.

Lucius obviously expects a high standard of Draco, and hasn't any
patience with his excuses, but there is, IMO, a very large difference
between expecting much of your child (even unrealistically much) and
actual mistreatment or abuse. This is not to say that I find Lucius'
criticism fair and reasonable, because I don't (actually I find his
ambitions on his child's behalf horrible), but it is still, IMO, a far
stretch from mistreatment -- in particular when considering that he has
just bought Draco a place on the Slytherin Quidditch side with seven
brand new top-knotch racing brooms.

Post by Q
- in the cos movie, at least, we see his father as a tyrannical
bully with a quick and vicious temper.

Another example of how the films deviate from the books. The portrayal
of Lucius Malfoy is much different in the books.

Post by Q
at the very least i don't think draco's ever going to be able
achieve enough to win his father's love and approval

That depends very much on what you mean by 'love' -- if you think of
the warm, hugging cosiness of Mrs Weasley, then I dare say that Draco
won't experience that (and I frankly find it a bit too much), but
Lucius obviously supports Draco, as seen both with the brooms in CoS,
but also in the various information he lets Draco in on, and the
Malfoys do send sweets to Draco.

Post by Q
and at the worst, i'd definitely believe there have been more
than a few scenes in the malfoy household to parallel the ones
harry saw of snape's dad yelling at him and his mother.

I don't think that there's anything in the books to support that.

Post by Q
otoh, i was really surprised to hear rowling say she's always felt
sorry for dudley. the kid's an unredeeming bully, and if he has
any sort of private pain we can sympathize with she's never let us
see it.

You are, I believe, speaking about this quotation:

Dateline 16 November 2000
"Harry Pottermania in Vancouver, with J.K. Rowling"
<http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/1100-garcia-dateline-1.html>
<http://tinyurl.com/2havm>/
"I feel sorry for Dudley. I might joke about him, but I feel
truly sorry for him because I see him as just as abused as
Harry. Though, in possibly a less obvious way. What they are
doing to him is inept, really. I think children recognize
that. Poor Dudley. He's not being prepared for the world at
all, in any reasonable or compassionate way, so I feel sorry
for him."

The best thing one can say about Lucius expectations for Draco is that
they keep both of them away from this particular trap.

[Q]

Post by Troels Forchhammer

Post by Q

Post by Troels Forchhammer
The glimpses of Snape's childhood we saw in OotP did, however,
not, as I see it, suggest a happy and spoiled childhood (no Draco
or Dudley there).

draco may be spoiled, but that doesn't mean he's never been
mistreated

There isn't anything to suggest that he is mistreated as such.

there's all kinds of ways to mistreat a child, and withholding your
affections is a big one. draco has clearly learned very early on that
he can only fleetingly win his father's approval by the things he
does, rather than by being who he is.

Post by Troels Forchhammer
Lucius obviously expects a high standard of Draco, and hasn't any
patience with his excuses, but there is, IMO, a very large difference
between expecting much of your child (even unrealistically much) and
actual mistreatment or abuse. This is not to say that I find Lucius'
criticism fair and reasonable, because I don't (actually I find his
ambitions on his child's behalf horrible), but it is still, IMO, a far
stretch from mistreatment -- in particular when considering that he has
just bought Draco a place on the Slytherin Quidditch side with seven
brand new top-knotch racing brooms.

you think that shows love? buying your child's esteem rather than
parenting him?

it's clear that lucius malfoy considers draco merely a reflection on
himself - ie, when draco does well, it makes him look good; when draco
fails, it makes him look bad. lucius didn't buy him a spot on the
quidditch team to make him happy; he did it to make himself look good.
after all, having your son be the seeker on the school quidditch team
has got to have some bragging points in his social circles.

Post by Troels Forchhammer

Post by Q
- in the cos movie, at least, we see his father as a tyrannical
bully with a quick and vicious temper.

Another example of how the films deviate from the books. The portrayal
of Lucius Malfoy is much different in the books.

not really. in the book, when harry tricks him into freeing dobby, he
*lunges* at him - right outside mcgonagall's office, and right under
albus dumbledore's nose. if his temper can override his judgement to
the point that he'd attack harry potter in the school where he was
better protected than anywhere else, i don't think he'd have any
qualms about lashing out at his own son for any slight misdeed.

(alright, maybe he didn't start the ak curse in the book - a part of
the movie i still have trouble with - but he *did* attack harry. who
knows what he might have done to him if dobby hadn't intervened?)

and speaking of dobby, lucius is certainly a tyrannical bully to him
in the book. he shouts at him, kicks him, knocks him down...all in
public. you think he treats his family any better in private?

Post by Troels Forchhammer

Post by Q
at the very least i don't think draco's ever going to be able
achieve enough to win his father's love and approval

That depends very much on what you mean by 'love' -- if you think of
the warm, hugging cosiness of Mrs Weasley, then I dare say that Draco
won't experience that (and I frankly find it a bit too much), but
Lucius obviously supports Draco, as seen both with the brooms in CoS,

again, that was more to make himself look good - and 'support' is
different than love or approval.

Post by Troels Forchhammer
but also in the various information he lets Draco in on, and the
Malfoys do send sweets to Draco.

that was undoubtedly his mother, not his father. in gof we're given a
very small insight into his family dynamics, and it's clear that what
affection he does receive comes from his mother. a lot like dudley,
maybe - over-coddled by his mother and pressured to success by his
father.

Post by Troels Forchhammer

Post by Q
and at the worst, i'd definitely believe there have been more
than a few scenes in the malfoy household to parallel the ones
harry saw of snape's dad yelling at him and his mother.

I don't think that there's anything in the books to support that.

i do - specifically, the evidence of his temper i cited earlier, and
his hostile and abusive treatment of what he considers 'underlings'
(ie dobby). from all we know about him, i have no doubt whatsoever
that his concept of 'underlings' extends to wives and children.

Post by Troels Forchhammer

Post by Q
otoh, i was really surprised to hear rowling say she's always felt
sorry for dudley. the kid's an unredeeming bully, and if he has
any sort of private pain we can sympathize with she's never let us
see it.

Dateline 16 November 2000
"Harry Pottermania in Vancouver, with J.K. Rowling"
<http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/1100-garcia-dateline-1.html>
<http://tinyurl.com/2havm>/
"I feel sorry for Dudley. I might joke about him, but I feel
truly sorry for him because I see him as just as abused as
Harry. Though, in possibly a less obvious way. What they are
doing to him is inept, really. I think children recognize
that. Poor Dudley. He's not being prepared for the world at
all, in any reasonable or compassionate way, so I feel sorry
for him."
The best thing one can say about Lucius expectations for Draco is that
they keep both of them away from this particular trap.

...how? how is buying your son a place on the school quidditch team
instead of making him earn his way there on talent preparing him for
the world in any reasonable or compassionate way?

lucius is failing his son by omission even worse than the dursleys,
imo - ie, instead of taking the time to practice quidditch with draco
so he'll be good enough to get on the team, he just buys him a place
by getting the team new brooms...'there. now maybe he'll shut up about
it.'

from all we've seen of lucius, both in the books and the films, he at
best regards his son as a sort of mirror by which others will judge
him. as long as the kid makes him look good he'll throw him a bone now
and then, and when he makes him look bad, punishment is swift and
harsh.

Q
looking forward to reading draco malfoy's new bestselling tell-all
book, 'daddy dearest'

[Dark Magic]

Post by Q

Post by Troels Forchhammer

Post by Q

Post by Troels Forchhammer
The glimpses of Snape's childhood we saw in OotP did, however,
not, as I see it, suggest a happy and spoiled childhood (no Draco
or Dudley there).

draco may be spoiled, but that doesn't mean he's never been mistreated

There isn't anything to suggest that he is mistreated as such.

Post by Q
- in the cos movie, at least, we see his father as a tyrannical
bully with a quick and vicious temper.

Another example of how the films deviate from the books. The portrayal
of Lucius Malfoy is much different in the books.

not really. in the book, when harry tricks him into freeing dobby, he
*lunges* at him - right outside mcgonagall's office, and right under
albus dumbledore's nose. if his temper can override his judgement to
the point that he'd attack harry potter in the school where he was
better protected than anywhere else, i don't think he'd have any
qualms about lashing out at his own son for any slight misdeed.

Just to stir the kettle a little....I think this is one of those points in
the story where JKR is inconsistent in her portrayal of a character. Lucius
Malfoy is clever. Very clever. Too clever, I believe, to attack Harry
Potter inside the castle, right in front of Dumbledore's office.

The scene gives Dobby his chance to shine, and he does. We get a good sense
of just how powerful a house-elf really is and just how loyal a friend Dobby
is to Harry now. So it's a good scene, maybe even a necessary scene. But I
think it's unlikely Lucius loses his temper very often and runs around
attacking children, especially in public.

Take, for example, how cool he is in OotP with Harry. Lestrange is all
geeked up to start Crucio-ing people, and Lucius keeps a lid on her. This
is almost in direct contrast to the way he tries to assault Harry at
Hogwarts.

I perceive him abusing Draco with icy condemnation and disapproval. No
matter what he does Draco won't measure up to Lucius expectations.

Shannon