Discussion:
Severus Snape: the repressed Gryffindor
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EVO
2004-06-16 12:24:46 UTC
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JKR admitted that *A* particular scene in the POA movie inadvertently
predicted what will happen in the future of the series. Whilst JKR
did not indicate which scene in the movie was the scene that
pre-empted her, I believe it could be the scene where Snape was
shielding the kids from the werewolf. This may not be as odd as some
people think, since the books (and the movies) have portrayed Snape
protecting Harry a number of times.
Eg. PS/first movie: counter curse against Quirrel's hurling curse on
the broom
POA book: in the Sheirking Shack when he was trying to "save" Harry
(one of his objectives) from Black and Lupin.

This seem to support the following theory - that Severus Snape is a
Gryffindor at heart. This is also in line with the Snape loves Lily/
Snape's redemption thread in the NG and that JKR confirmed along the
line that Snape did/will love somebody.

In the PS book and first movie, Harry was allocated to Gryffindor
House by the Sorting Hat. Then in the COS book and second movie we
understood the edge which his destiny balanced between Slytherin and
Gryffindor. The whole thing came down to choice, Harry's choice. The
fact is that if Harry had not chosen, so vehemently, to be put in
Gryffindor, the Sorting Hat *WAS* going to put Harry in Slytherin.

In think during Snape's time, he also made a choice, and he *CHOSE* to
go to Slytherin. This may not seem so unusual, except that I believe
the Sorting Hat *WAS* going to put him in Gryffindor!.

As we all know, it was Malfoy's botched attempt at friendship, and the
fact that Harry had sat with Ron first in train and got to know him
first, that heavily influenced Harry's choice during the Sorting. If
I'm correct (and according to the movie and I don't have the book with
me to verify this), both Ron, Hermione and Malfoy were sorted before
Harry. So naturally, as Harry was then pre-disposed to Ron and
Hermione, and given that Malfoy had rubbed Harry the wrong way, Harry
was bound to choose Gryffindor over Slytherin.

What would have happened if the lonely and impressionable Harry had
sat with Malfoy in the train first? They both could have bought each
other Chocolate Frogs and Malfoy's opinion regarding Weasleys *MAY*
not have met any objection with Harry (he may not like it, but if your
first friend in a new place says so, you may not argue too much). In
this alternate potterverse, there would be no reason why he wouldn't
not then have accepted Malfoy's friendship and NOT vehemently deny the
destiny that the Sorting Hat would choosen for him - Slytherin.

Now imagine the same thing when Snape was on his way as a first year
to Hogwarts. Perhaps during that trip, the Marauders (Lupin, Black,
Pettigrew and Potter, or maybe most likely just Black and Potter)
played a trick on him, snubbed or insulted him in a way, making Snape
feel bad, humiliated and angry. At that point when it was his turn at
the Sorting Hat, Snape would have naturally *CHOSEN* to go to
Slytherin (given that the rest of the Marauders went to Griffyndor)
even when the Hat *WAS* going to put him in Gryffindor.

When Harry made his choice to go to Gryffindor, "the circle is
complete" (so to say according to the *OTHER* great series of movies).
In Snape's generation, a future Gryffindor was lost to Slytherin and
in Harry's time, a future Slytherin was lost to Gryffindor. The
ledger is now balanced.

What the scene with the werewolf seem to indicate is that Snape still
possess the heart/spirit of a true Gryffindor, and throughout the
books it has shown that he is no coward - to a point his actions were
almost selfless. eg.

Book 1: At Halloween he headed off Quirrel to protect the PS, even
suffering Fluffy's affections for his effort. He didn't have to do
this - what would he have gained out of this? Nothing I would think
other than it is the right thing to do.
Book 3: He went alone to try and capture 2 wizards (Lupin and Black)
Why? What was his motive? 50% revenge? 40% desire to save Harry? 10%
because he wants to win?
End of Book 4: Infiltrate Voldy's group without fear, and according to
DD he has the most dangerous assignment of all members in the OotP -
what did he have to gain out of this?
Book 5: <someone might be able to point out Snape's brave/selfless
actions - I can't remember off the top of my head>

Overall, a true Slytherin wouldn't care about people other than
attaining power. They could be brave, resourceful, brilliant and
"great" but they wouldn't give two shavings of monkswood about anyone
other than to attain power for themselves (eg. Malfoys, Voldy..).

A true Slytherin wouldn't "care" about Harry, a true Slytherin
wouldn't care about repaying a life debt either. So Snape's
"insistence" of repaying James Potter's action of saving his life by
saving Harry's numerous times indicate that deep down beneath all the
hate, a sliver of Gryffindorian spirit still shines.

Whilst this spirit may not shine bright enough (yet?) to counter the
years of humiliation, hate and suffering being the butt of practical
and lethal jokes, it explains why Snape "hates" Harry and yet "cares"
for him at the same time. After all, Harry is the constant reminder
of what he had become - what he was *FORCED TO CHOOSE* to become and
what he could and should have been.
And this is separate to whether Harry looked like James or had Lily's
eyes, or Snape had a crush on Lily, blah..blah..

As for Dumbledore, he knew of Snape's choice, as he knew of Harry's.
Because of that knowledge, Dumbledore trusted Snape, that somewhere
deep down he would do the right thing.

As such, in a possible future storyline, we could see Snape regaining
his goodness and redeem himself. As someone else pointed out, he might
even replace Dumbledore as Harry's new benefector/protector. Would
Snape be the one who stands between Voldy's AK(47) and Harry, just as
he stood between the werewolf and the kids in the movie?
K. Black
2004-06-16 16:00:41 UTC
Permalink
EVO (***@hotmail.com) wrote:
: What the scene with the werewolf seem to indicate is that Snape still
: possess the heart/spirit of a true Gryffindor, and throughout the
: books it has shown that he is no coward - to a point his actions were
: almost selfless. eg.
[snip]
: Overall, a true Slytherin wouldn't care about people other than
: attaining power. They could be brave, resourceful, brilliant and
: "great" but they wouldn't give two shavings of monkswood about anyone
: other than to attain power for themselves (eg. Malfoys, Voldy..).

In an interview, Alan Rickman said he felt Snape to be insecure and
willing to do anything to gain the respect he so craves, even if that
means being a black [sic] wizard. (I paraphrase as my nephew is in
possession of the magazine.) So...at least according to the actor who
plays him, Snape isn't entirely selfless and is trying to attain power of
a sort by his actions.
Maria Danielle Darst
2004-06-16 15:03:15 UTC
Permalink
snip snip snip snip
As we all know, it was Malfoy's botched attempt at friendship, and the
fact that Harry had sat with Ron first in train and got to know him
first, that heavily influenced Harry's choice during the Sorting. If
I'm correct (and according to the movie and I don't have the book with
me to verify this), both Ron, Hermione and Malfoy were sorted before
Harry. So naturally, as Harry was then pre-disposed to Ron and
Hermione, and given that Malfoy had rubbed Harry the wrong way, Harry
was bound to choose Gryffindor over Slytherin.
In the movie all of those characters were sorted before Harry....but not in
the book...they were in alphabetical order.

I think that Snape inherently has a decent side (overall I think we all
attempt to have one), but OTOH maybe the Slytherin thing to do was to come
and save his own ass when he realized what the DE's were truly on about.

It would seem the reason that Snape "cares" about Harry's survival is the
life debt owed to him by Snape (well...that was owed to James and then
passed on to Harry).

Maybe I've got it all wrong...but personally would like to see the charater
develop a little more and of course see more Alan Rickman on screen in the
movies....*lol* :)

Maria
Fish Eye no Miko
2004-06-16 15:18:00 UTC
Permalink
If I'm correct (and according to the movie and I don't
have the book with me to verify this), both Ron,
Hermione and Malfoy were sorted before Harry.
No. They did that in the movie so "the hero" would go last. In the book,
they went in alphabetical order so Ron (Weasley) was Sorted after Harry
(Potter).
What would have happened if the lonely and impressionable Harry had
sat with Malfoy in the train first? They both could have bought
each other Chocolate Frogs
And Malfoy still would have spouted off his classist and exclusionary
views, prompting Harry to dislike him.
In the book, he actually DID meet Malfoy first, in the shop where he bought
his robes. Malfoy's spouting off about non-wizard blood and all turned
Harry against him almost immediately.
Now imagine the same thing when Snape was on his way as a first year
to Hogwarts. Perhaps during that trip, the Marauders (Lupin, Black,
Pettigrew and Potter, or maybe most likely just Black and Potter)
played a trick on him, snubbed or insulted him in a way, making
Snape feel bad, humiliated and angry. At that point when it was
his turn at the Sorting Hat, Snape would have naturally *CHOSEN* to
go to Slytherin (given that the rest of the Marauders went to
Griffyndor) even when the Hat *WAS* going to put him in Gryffindor.
Snape was into the Dark Arts before he was at Hogwarts... not exactly the
makings of a Gryffindor, regardless of who he knows.
And, remember, Snape probably grew up in the Wizarding community (I find it
hard to believe a Muggle-born or half-blood would be a Death Eater), he
might have actually known some of the wizards you're talking about before
even getting on the train and already had opinions of them.
Book 5: <someone might be able to point out Snape's brave/selfless
actions - I can't remember off the top of my head>
He warned the OtP about the "Voldemort's got Sirius" thing.
A true Slytherin wouldn't "care" about Harry, a true Slytherin
wouldn't care about repaying a life debt either.
I'm not sure it's something you've got a choice about...

Catherine Johnson.
--
fenm at cox dot net
"Boy discovers who bad guy is and says, 'Hey, for once it's not Alan
Rickman!'."
-www.jaydonaldson.com's review of _Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's
Stone_.
Ranee Mueller
2004-06-16 18:53:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fish Eye no Miko
And, remember, Snape probably grew up in the Wizarding community (I
find it hard to believe a Muggle-born or half-blood would be a Death
Eater), he might have actually known some of the wizards you're
talking about before even getting on the train and already had
opinions of them.
But wasn't Tom Riddle half-blood? Can't remember details from the
book now, but wasn't his mom a witch and dad a muggle who hated witches?











Regards,
Ranee (going back to lurking)
--
Remove do not and spam to e-mail me.

"The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of
heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man." Acts 17:24
Fish Eye no Miko
2004-06-16 20:07:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ranee Mueller
Post by Fish Eye no Miko
And, remember, Snape probably grew up in the Wizarding
community (I find it hard to believe a Muggle-born or half-blood
would be a Death Eater)
But wasn't Tom Riddle half-blood? Can't remember details from
the book now, but wasn't his mom a witch and dad a muggle who hated
witches?
Yes, but he hates anyone with than less than full wizard blood, and it
appears the DE's do, as well.

Catherine Johnson.
--
fenm at cox dot net
"The Earth is safe! I did it, GIR! Now let's go destroy it."
_Zim, _Invader Zim_.
Alex Clark
2004-06-17 00:43:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fish Eye no Miko
If I'm correct (and according to the movie and I don't
have the book with me to verify this), both Ron,
Hermione and Malfoy were sorted before Harry.
No. They did that in the movie so "the hero" would go last. In the book,
they went in alphabetical order so Ron (Weasley) was Sorted after Harry
(Potter).
Though Ron was sort of required to be in Gryffindor because his whole
family goes into Gryffindor. Harry would not have expected Ron to turn
up in Slytherin. Hermione and Malfoy had already been sorted.
Post by Fish Eye no Miko
What would have happened if the lonely and impressionable Harry had
sat with Malfoy in the train first? They both could have bought
each other Chocolate Frogs
And Malfoy still would have spouted off his classist and exclusionary
views, prompting Harry to dislike him.
In the book, he actually DID meet Malfoy first, in the shop where he bought
his robes. Malfoy's spouting off about non-wizard blood and all turned
Harry against him almost immediately.
It started when Malfoy said, "Then I'm going to drag them off to look
at racing brooms. I don't see why first years can't have their own. I
think I'll bully father into getting me one and I'll smuggle it in
somehow." It's no wonder that Harry was strongly reminded of Dudley.

As for what would have happened if they had sat together on the train
-- Harry would probably have revealed within minutes that he had
"never been brought up to know our ways." (He would have had to reveal
this, because he didn't know their ways.) Mutual insults would
probably have ensued, followed by enmity.

Maybe that's where Dumbledore's decision to leave him with the
Dursleys really paid off -- it caused Harry to be unable to get along
with the pure-blood supremacists.
Post by Fish Eye no Miko
. . . At that point when it was
his turn at the Sorting Hat, Snape would have naturally *CHOSEN* to
go to Slytherin (given that the rest of the Marauders went to
Griffyndor) even when the Hat *WAS* going to put him in Gryffindor.
Snape was into the Dark Arts before he was at Hogwarts... not exactly the
makings of a Gryffindor, regardless of who he knows.
Maybe that's why he just said no to Gryffindor. :-)
--
Alex Clark

Lo, mad lover rid Tom (an anagram rejected by Tom Riddle)
Kish
2004-06-16 19:25:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by EVO
This is also in line with the Snape loves Lily/
Snape's redemption thread in the NG and that JKR confirmed along the
line that Snape did/will love somebody.
Confirmed? No, she didn't.
Post by EVO
In the PS book and first movie, Harry was allocated to Gryffindor
House by the Sorting Hat. Then in the COS book and second movie we
understood the edge which his destiny balanced between Slytherin and
Gryffindor. The whole thing came down to choice, Harry's choice. The
fact is that if Harry had not chosen, so vehemently, to be put in
Gryffindor, the Sorting Hat *WAS* going to put Harry in Slytherin.
Well, he chose to go in "Not Slytherin." He didn't express a preference
between Gryffindor, Hufflepuff, and Ravenclaw.
Post by EVO
As we all know, it was Malfoy's botched attempt at friendship, and the
fact that Harry had sat with Ron first in train and got to know him
first, that heavily influenced Harry's choice during the Sorting.
Harry met Malfoy well before he met Ron, and Malfoy alienated him almost
immediately--his first impression of Malfoy (in the robe shop in London)
was being reminded of Dudley.
Post by EVO
If
I'm correct (and according to the movie and I don't have the book with
me to verify this), both Ron, Hermione and Malfoy were sorted before
Harry. So naturally, as Harry was then pre-disposed to Ron and
Hermione, and given that Malfoy had rubbed Harry the wrong way, Harry
was bound to choose Gryffindor over Slytherin.
He was more motivated by Hagrid telling him that Slytherin produced the
darkest of wizards, including Voldemort.
Post by EVO
Book 1: At Halloween he headed off Quirrel to protect the PS, even
suffering Fluffy's affections for his effort. He didn't have to do
this - what would he have gained out of this?
The Order of Merlin--if he saved the Philosopher's Stone from Voldemort.
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