Fidelius Charm

[Thom Madura]

A lot of people are givning properties to this charm that simply cannot
be. SO - again - here is what JKR said about it on her web site and in
the books -

"an immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a
SECRET inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside
the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to
find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it"
(Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban)

In other words, a SECRET (eg, the location of a family in hiding, like
the Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper (in
our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody else
– not even the subjects of the secret themselves – can divulge the
secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed
Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been
able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only people who
ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail had told
directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the information.



The operative word here is "SECRET".

THe charmn does not MAKE a secret - it keeps a secret. SO whatever it
protects must be a Secret.

A secret - something that is only known by the "keeper" and those
involved (Say the Potters at the time) is protected. Only the "keeper"
may divilge the SECRET - even the subjects of the secret themselves may
not reveal it.

BUT - it must be a secret. By definition - a secret cannot be something
that is generally known. You could not make a secret that London is in
England for instance - because it is NOT a secret. Likewise - you could
not make a house or address a secret - unless no one else knows about them.

THe Address - 12 Grimmauld place cannot be made a secret - people live
on that street and know where it is. It is not a secret.

It is certainly possible to make a house at that address a secret IF no
one else has ever seen it but the "keeper" and the subjects of the
secret. BUT - the house at 12 Grimmauld place is not a secret either -
because others have seen the house - at the very least Narcissus has.
Remember - the charm does not make something a secret - it prevents a
secret from being told. Therefore - whatever it protects must be a
secret that no one else knows at the time.

Based on the above - the FC charm cannot be the location of Sirus' house.

The "secret" itself is written in OOP -Chapter 3 - last page which says

"The headquarters of the OOP may be found at 12 Grimmauld Place, London."

That means to me that only those who are IN on the secret can find the
OOP there. It doesn't mean that you cannot find the house.

Yes - Sirius' father added enchantments to the house to prevent people
from finding it - and it did disappear to others. That cannot be part of
the Fidelius charm. THe reason why we know this is that the Potters'
house did not "disappear" to the muggles - who knew it "blew up". Again
- the secret had to be that the house was the hididng place - not the
location of the house (ANd JKR states that above).

[gjw]

On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 14:32:40 GMT, Thom Madura

Post by Thom Madura
A lot of people are givning properties to this charm that simply cannot
be. SO - again - here is what JKR said about it on her web site and in
the books -
"an immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a
SECRET inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside
the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to
find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it"
(Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban)
In other words, a SECRET (eg, the location of a family in hiding, like
the Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper (in
our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody else
– not even the subjects of the secret themselves – can divulge the
secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed
Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been
able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only people who
ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail had told
directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the information.
The operative word here is "SECRET".
THe charmn does not MAKE a secret - it keeps a secret. SO whatever it
protects must be a Secret.
A secret - something that is only known by the "keeper" and those
involved (Say the Potters at the time) is protected. Only the "keeper"
may divilge the SECRET - even the subjects of the secret themselves may
not reveal it.
BUT - it must be a secret. By definition - a secret cannot be something
that is generally known. You could not make a secret that London is in
England for instance - because it is NOT a secret. Likewise - you could
not make a house or address a secret - unless no one else knows about them.
THe Address - 12 Grimmauld place cannot be made a secret - people live
on that street and know where it is. It is not a secret.

I think it would depend upon whether speaking the address would reveal
the secret.

For instance, here are two different scenarios:

1. Someone who knows nothing about the OotP, asks you what the
address is of the old house on the corner.

2. A Death Eater asks you to tell him where the OotP is meeting.


In the first instance, if you say "12 Grimmauld Place", you are not
revealing the secret (which is that 12 Grimmauld Place is the meeting
place of the Order), only the address.

In the second instance, if you say exactly the same thing ("12
Grimmauld Place"), you definitely are revealing the secret.


My hunch is that merely speaking the name of address would not be
forbidden so long as doing so did not reveal that it was the secret
meeting place of the Order.

[Thom Madura]

Post by gjw
On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 14:32:40 GMT, Thom Madura

Post by Thom Madura
A lot of people are givning properties to this charm that simply cannot
be. SO - again - here is what JKR said about it on her web site and in
the books -
"an immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a
SECRET inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside
the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to
find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it"
(Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban)
In other words, a SECRET (eg, the location of a family in hiding, like
the Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper (in
our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody else
– not even the subjects of the secret themselves – can divulge the
secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed
Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been
able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only people who
ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail had told
directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the information.
The operative word here is "SECRET".
THe charmn does not MAKE a secret - it keeps a secret. SO whatever it
protects must be a Secret.
A secret - something that is only known by the "keeper" and those
involved (Say the Potters at the time) is protected. Only the "keeper"
may divilge the SECRET - even the subjects of the secret themselves may
not reveal it.
BUT - it must be a secret. By definition - a secret cannot be something
that is generally known. You could not make a secret that London is in
England for instance - because it is NOT a secret. Likewise - you could
not make a house or address a secret - unless no one else knows about them.
THe Address - 12 Grimmauld place cannot be made a secret - people live
on that street and know where it is. It is not a secret.

I think it would depend upon whether speaking the address would reveal
the secret.
1. Someone who knows nothing about the OotP, asks you what the
address is of the old house on the corner.
2. A Death Eater asks you to tell him where the OotP is meeting.
In the first instance, if you say "12 Grimmauld Place", you are not
revealing the secret (which is that 12 Grimmauld Place is the meeting
place of the Order), only the address.
In the second instance, if you say exactly the same thing ("12
Grimmauld Place"), you definitely are revealing the secret.
My hunch is that merely speaking the name of address would not be
forbidden so long as doing so did not reveal that it was the secret
meeting place of the Order.

I agree

[Paul Ciszek]

Post by Thom Madura
the Fidelius charm. THe reason why we know this is that the Potters'
house did not "disappear" to the muggles - who knew it "blew up". Again

Where is the muggle account refered to? It's been six books, spread out
over a lot of years.

[Richard Eney]

PoA spoilers

Post by Paul Ciszek

Post by Thom Madura
the Fidelius charm. THe reason why we know this is that the Potters'
house did not "disappear" to the muggles - who knew it "blew up". Again

Where is the muggle account refered to? It's been six books, spread out
over a lot of years.

We learn some things in PS/SS, and some in PoA when Harry overhears
the adults in the village pub, while he's wearing the invisibility cloak.

In PS/SS, Hagrid tells Dd that he got there before the muggles swarmed
around and found Harry in the rubble. So the house was destroyed, and
the muggles were coming, so presumably they heard or saw something at
night that made them think they should swarm around. We assume it was
either an explosion or just the sound of a house collapsing.

Then later in PoA we learn that PP and SB met and PP blew up the street
and a dozen or so muggles. But that was _after_ Hagrid found Harry,
met an upset SB, and borrowed SB's motorcycle. (SB must have been very
confident of being able to find PP without it, or he understood that
getting Harry away safely was even more important than revenge.)

So it seems that there were two loud noises, one at least definitely
an explosion. Also in PS/SS Petunia expects that the house would be
blown up if she left Harry alone, and later says his parents got
themselves blown up. So it seems that JKR intends that there were
two explosions.

The MoM arrived at the site of the SB-PP "gas main" explosion where
muggles were definitely involved, and _that_ was reported as a gas
explosion (after some questioning and memory charms).

I don't remember any muggle reports about the Potter house explosion.
We only have Hagrid's statement that muggles even showed up. Would
the sound have escaped from a charm that would otherwise hide
the house? If so, would Hagrid have even worried about being seen
by the muggle investigators? *He is perfectly capable of walking
around London with Harry so he isn't worried about just being seen
by muggles.)

=tamar

[Toon]

Post by Richard Eney
Would
the sound have escaped from a charm that would otherwise hide
the house?

The house wasn't hidden. The Potters inside was. Remember, Vodlemort
could look into a window and never see them there. He can't look
through a window if the house is hidden. He probably already knew the
house was there, and would suspect something's up if it's gone. if he
finds there house, and see sit's empty, he shrugs his shoulders and
moves on, then punishes whoever gave him bad intel.

[t***@gmail.com]

Post by Toon

Post by Richard Eney
Would
the sound have escaped from a charm that would otherwise hide
the house?

The house wasn't hidden. The Potters inside was. Remember, Vodlemort
could look into a window and never see them there. He can't look
through a window if the house is hidden. He probably already knew the
house was there, and would suspect something's up if it's gone. if he
finds there house, and see sit's empty, he shrugs his shoulders and
moves on, then punishes whoever gave him bad intel.

Were the Potters still protected if they left the house?

[DaveD]

Post by Richard Eney
PoA spoilers

Post by Paul Ciszek

Post by Thom Madura
the Fidelius charm. THe reason why we know this is that the Potters'
house did not "disappear" to the muggles - who knew it "blew up". Again

Where is the muggle account refered to? It's been six books, spread out
over a lot of years.

We learn some things in PS/SS, and some in PoA when Harry overhears
the adults in the village pub, while he's wearing the invisibility cloak.
In PS/SS, Hagrid tells Dd that he got there before the muggles swarmed
around and found Harry in the rubble. So the house was destroyed, and
the muggles were coming, so presumably they heard or saw something at
night that made them think they should swarm around. We assume it was
either an explosion or just the sound of a house collapsing.
Then later in PoA we learn that PP and SB met and PP blew up the street
and a dozen or so muggles. But that was _after_ Hagrid found Harry,
met an upset SB, and borrowed SB's motorcycle. (SB must have been very
confident of being able to find PP without it, or he understood that
getting Harry away safely was even more important than revenge.)
So it seems that there were two loud noises, one at least definitely
an explosion. Also in PS/SS Petunia expects that the house would be
blown up if she left Harry alone, and later says his parents got
themselves blown up. So it seems that JKR intends that there were
two explosions.
The MoM arrived at the site of the SB-PP "gas main" explosion where
muggles were definitely involved, and _that_ was reported as a gas
explosion (after some questioning and memory charms).
I don't remember any muggle reports about the Potter house explosion.
We only have Hagrid's statement that muggles even showed up. Would
the sound have escaped from a charm that would otherwise hide
the house? If so, would Hagrid have even worried about being seen
by the muggle investigators? *He is perfectly capable of walking
around London with Harry so he isn't worried about just being seen
by muggles.)

I'm afraid I can't recall PS/SS in that amount of detail, but is that the
definite running order? I'm just wondering whether it was possible that
Voldy killed James and Lilly and had his AK rebound, leaving the house
more-or-less intact. But then after PP and SB had their fight, PP blew up
the street, and that was what reduced the house to rubble. Harry was lucky
to survive, and/or PP vs SB was further away than all the muggles who copped
it? Then Hagrid came along and rescued him.

I've got an annoying feeling I'm going to have to skim PS and PoA to check
the detail here!

DaveD

[Toon]

On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 20:57:13 GMT, "DaveD"

Post by DaveD

Post by Richard Eney
PoA spoilers

Post by Paul Ciszek

Post by Thom Madura
the Fidelius charm. THe reason why we know this is that the Potters'
house did not "disappear" to the muggles - who knew it "blew up". Again

Where is the muggle account refered to? It's been six books, spread out
over a lot of years.

We learn some things in PS/SS, and some in PoA when Harry overhears
the adults in the village pub, while he's wearing the invisibility cloak.
In PS/SS, Hagrid tells Dd that he got there before the muggles swarmed
around and found Harry in the rubble. So the house was destroyed, and
the muggles were coming, so presumably they heard or saw something at
night that made them think they should swarm around. We assume it was
either an explosion or just the sound of a house collapsing.
Then later in PoA we learn that PP and SB met and PP blew up the street
and a dozen or so muggles. But that was _after_ Hagrid found Harry,
met an upset SB, and borrowed SB's motorcycle. (SB must have been very
confident of being able to find PP without it, or he understood that
getting Harry away safely was even more important than revenge.)
So it seems that there were two loud noises, one at least definitely
an explosion. Also in PS/SS Petunia expects that the house would be
blown up if she left Harry alone, and later says his parents got
themselves blown up. So it seems that JKR intends that there were
two explosions.
The MoM arrived at the site of the SB-PP "gas main" explosion where
muggles were definitely involved, and _that_ was reported as a gas
explosion (after some questioning and memory charms).
I don't remember any muggle reports about the Potter house explosion.
We only have Hagrid's statement that muggles even showed up. Would
the sound have escaped from a charm that would otherwise hide
the house? If so, would Hagrid have even worried about being seen
by the muggle investigators? *He is perfectly capable of walking
around London with Harry so he isn't worried about just being seen
by muggles.)

I'm afraid I can't recall PS/SS in that amount of detail, but is that the
definite running order? I'm just wondering whether it was possible that
Voldy killed James and Lilly and had his AK rebound, leaving the house
more-or-less intact. But then after PP and SB had their fight, PP blew up
the street, and that was what reduced the house to rubble. Harry was lucky
to survive, and/or PP vs SB was further away than all the muggles who copped
it? Then Hagrid came along and rescued him.
I've got an annoying feeling I'm going to have to skim PS and PoA to check
the detail here!
DaveD

S&P's fight was the next day. Sirius arrived to a destroyed house,
saw Hagrid taking Harry, and requested Harry be given to him as he's
his godfather. When Hagrid said he was under DD's orders, Sirius
relinquished his rights. Why would he argue with DD? He then loaned
Hagrid his bike. Which became permanent.

[DaveD]

Post by Toon
On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 20:57:13 GMT, "DaveD"

Post by DaveD

Post by Richard Eney
PoA spoilers

In article

...

Post by Toon

Post by DaveD
I'm afraid I can't recall PS/SS in that amount of detail, but is that the
definite running order? I'm just wondering whether it was possible that
Voldy killed James and Lilly and had his AK rebound, leaving the house
more-or-less intact. But then after PP and SB had their fight, PP blew up
the street, and that was what reduced the house to rubble. Harry was lucky
to survive, and/or PP vs SB was further away than all the muggles who copped
it? Then Hagrid came along and rescued him.
I've got an annoying feeling I'm going to have to skim PS and PoA to check
the detail here!
DaveD

S&P's fight was the next day. Sirius arrived to a destroyed house,
saw Hagrid taking Harry, and requested Harry be given to him as he's
his godfather. When Hagrid said he was under DD's orders, Sirius
relinquished his rights. Why would he argue with DD? He then loaned
Hagrid his bike. Which became permanent.

Thanks (funny, I never really noticed or strung any of these details
together. I can see I am gonna have to rereread the earlier books!)

DaveD

[Thom Madura]

Post by DaveD

Post by Toon
On Mon, 24 Jul 2006 20:57:13 GMT, "DaveD"

Post by DaveD

Post by Richard Eney
PoA spoilers

In article

...

Post by Toon

Post by DaveD
I'm afraid I can't recall PS/SS in that amount of detail, but is that the
definite running order? I'm just wondering whether it was possible that
Voldy killed James and Lilly and had his AK rebound, leaving the house
more-or-less intact. But then after PP and SB had their fight, PP blew up
the street, and that was what reduced the house to rubble. Harry was

lucky

Post by Toon

Post by DaveD
to survive, and/or PP vs SB was further away than all the muggles who

copped

Post by Toon

Post by DaveD
it? Then Hagrid came along and rescued him.
I've got an annoying feeling I'm going to have to skim PS and PoA to

check

Post by Toon

Post by DaveD
the detail here!
DaveD

S&P's fight was the next day. Sirius arrived to a destroyed house,
saw Hagrid taking Harry, and requested Harry be given to him as he's
his godfather. When Hagrid said he was under DD's orders, Sirius
relinquished his rights. Why would he argue with DD? He then loaned
Hagrid his bike. Which became permanent.

Thanks (funny, I never really noticed or strung any of these details
together. I can see I am gonna have to rereread the earlier books!)
DaveD

Still - the point remains -

1 - Pettigrew was the secret keeper and he was still alive
2 - Harry was still alive
3 - Only the Potters, Pettigrew, and V knew the secret.

IF the secret was that their House was their hiding place (THe potters)
- as JKR implies on her web site - then THe secret should have remained
in force - because Harry was still alive and in the (Albeit blown up)
house.

Sirius could have found Harry - since he was in on the secret.
Sirius could not have told Dumbledore or Hagrid - he was not the secret
keeper.
V could not have told anyone as well - he was not the secret keeper.
Pettigrew certainly did not tell any of the good guys. Dumbledore and
Hagrid did not know - they thought Sirius was the secret keeper.

SO - if the secret keeper NEVER told Dumbledore or Hagrid - then HOW did
they know where to find Harry? The FC should have still been in force.

Now - it IS possible that the secret was where Lily and James were
hiding and it did not include Harry - but that would be stupid - find
the BABY alone in the house and can't find the parents.

AND - if DUmbledore was powerful enough to have a way around the FC
spell - then he would have found out that Pettigrew was the secret
keeper - and Sirius would not have been sent to Azkhaban.

I think JKR goofed here somewhere.

[Dave Pirie]

Thom Madura wrote:

<snippage>

Post by Thom Madura
Still - the point remains -
1 - Pettigrew was the secret keeper and he was still alive
2 - Harry was still alive
3 - Only the Potters, Pettigrew, and V knew the secret.
IF the secret was that their House was their hiding place (THe potters)
- as JKR implies on her web site - then THe secret should have remained
in force - because Harry was still alive and in the (Albeit blown up)
house.
Sirius could have found Harry - since he was in on the secret.
Sirius could not have told Dumbledore or Hagrid - he was not the secret
keeper.
V could not have told anyone as well - he was not the secret keeper.
Pettigrew certainly did not tell any of the good guys. Dumbledore and
Hagrid did not know - they thought Sirius was the secret keeper.
SO - if the secret keeper NEVER told Dumbledore or Hagrid - then HOW did
they know where to find Harry? The FC should have still been in force.
Now - it IS possible that the secret was where Lily and James were
hiding and it did not include Harry - but that would be stupid - find
the BABY alone in the house and can't find the parents.
AND - if DUmbledore was powerful enough to have a way around the FC
spell - then he would have found out that Pettigrew was the secret
keeper - and Sirius would not have been sent to Azkhaban.
I think JKR goofed here somewhere.

It's possible that Peter wrote down where the Potters were for
Dumbledore, Hagrid, et al., similar to how Dumbledore wrote down the
location of the OOP headquarters for Harry. If they were given this
piece of paper by Sirius, or anyone else for that matter, then there's
no reason they'd know that Sirius wasn't the secret keeper. Plus
they'd both know where to find Harry.

[gjw]

On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 00:26:13 GMT, Thom Madura

Post by Thom Madura
Still - the point remains -
1 - Pettigrew was the secret keeper and he was still alive
2 - Harry was still alive
3 - Only the Potters, Pettigrew, and V knew the secret.
IF the secret was that their House was their hiding place (THe potters)
- as JKR implies on her web site - then THe secret should have remained
in force - because Harry was still alive and in the (Albeit blown up)
house.
Sirius could have found Harry - since he was in on the secret.
Sirius could not have told Dumbledore or Hagrid - he was not the secret
keeper.
V could not have told anyone as well - he was not the secret keeper.
Pettigrew certainly did not tell any of the good guys. Dumbledore and
Hagrid did not know - they thought Sirius was the secret keeper.
SO - if the secret keeper NEVER told Dumbledore or Hagrid - then HOW did
they know where to find Harry? The FC should have still been in force.
Now - it IS possible that the secret was where Lily and James were
hiding and it did not include Harry - but that would be stupid - find
the BABY alone in the house and can't find the parents.

The exact wording Rowling used on her site was "the location of a
family in hiding".

A family consists of more than one person, usually related by blood.
With the death of Lily and James, the Potter family had ceased to
exist. All that was left was a single orphan. The hiding place itself
had ceased to exist (or at least had been reduced to ruins which we
most likely incapable of providing shelter). And the villain from
whom they were hiding had already found them and killed them, then had
been killed himself. The family was no longer in hiding, the secret (a
family in hiding) no longer existed, so (IMO) the secret keeper spell
simply ceased to operate.

[Thom Madura]

Post by gjw
On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 00:26:13 GMT, Thom Madura

Post by Thom Madura
Still - the point remains -
1 - Pettigrew was the secret keeper and he was still alive
2 - Harry was still alive
3 - Only the Potters, Pettigrew, and V knew the secret.
IF the secret was that their House was their hiding place (THe potters)
- as JKR implies on her web site - then THe secret should have remained
in force - because Harry was still alive and in the (Albeit blown up)
house.
Sirius could have found Harry - since he was in on the secret.
Sirius could not have told Dumbledore or Hagrid - he was not the secret
keeper.
V could not have told anyone as well - he was not the secret keeper.
Pettigrew certainly did not tell any of the good guys. Dumbledore and
Hagrid did not know - they thought Sirius was the secret keeper.
SO - if the secret keeper NEVER told Dumbledore or Hagrid - then HOW did
they know where to find Harry? The FC should have still been in force.
Now - it IS possible that the secret was where Lily and James were
hiding and it did not include Harry - but that would be stupid - find
the BABY alone in the house and can't find the parents.

The exact wording Rowling used on her site was "the location of a
family in hiding".
A family consists of more than one person, usually related by blood.
With the death of Lily and James, the Potter family had ceased to
exist. All that was left was a single orphan. The hiding place itself
had ceased to exist (or at least had been reduced to ruins which we
most likely incapable of providing shelter). And the villain from
whom they were hiding had already found them and killed them, then had
been killed himself. The family was no longer in hiding, the secret (a
family in hiding) no longer existed, so (IMO) the secret keeper spell
simply ceased to operate.

BUT - the family had not ceased to exist - Harry was still alive. I do
not believe they would have protected themselves without protecting Baby
Harry. If the FC protected the Family - then ALL three would need to be
dead before the FC would cease.

[DaveD]

Post by Thom Madura

Post by gjw
On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 00:26:13 GMT, Thom Madura

...

Post by Thom Madura
BUT - the family had not ceased to exist - Harry was still alive. I do
not believe they would have protected themselves without protecting Baby
Harry. If the FC protected the Family - then ALL three would need to be
dead before the FC would cease.

No, I'd say that with James and Lilly dead, Harry was now an orphan, not a
family. Therefore, there was no family so no secret anymore for the FC no
longer applied.

DaveD

[gjw]

On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 21:01:06 GMT, "DaveD"

Post by DaveD

Post by Thom Madura

Post by gjw
On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 00:26:13 GMT, Thom Madura

...

Post by Thom Madura
BUT - the family had not ceased to exist - Harry was still alive. I do
not believe they would have protected themselves without protecting Baby
Harry. If the FC protected the Family - then ALL three would need to be
dead before the FC would cease.

No, I'd say that with James and Lilly dead, Harry was now an orphan, not a
family. Therefore, there was no family so no secret anymore for the FC no
longer applied.

Precisely.

Tom missed my first sentence, in which I said that a family, by
definition, consists of a group of people (usually related). One
person does not make a family.

Also, of course, they were no longer in hiding. They had been found
and killed. So there was no family in hiding, and hence, no secret.

[t***@gmail.com]

Post by DaveD

Post by Thom Madura

Post by gjw
On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 00:26:13 GMT, Thom Madura

...

Post by Thom Madura
BUT - the family had not ceased to exist - Harry was still alive. I do
not believe they would have protected themselves without protecting Baby
Harry. If the FC protected the Family - then ALL three would need to be
dead before the FC would cease.

No, I'd say that with James and Lilly dead, Harry was now an orphan, not a
family. Therefore, there was no family so no secret anymore for the FC no
longer applied.

Would the FC understand such subtleties?

[George Johnson]

"Thom Madura" <Thom-***@Worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:cMLwg.164407$***@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
|
| A lot of people are givning properties to this charm that simply cannot
| be. SO - again - here is what JKR said about it on her web site and in
| the books -
|
| "an immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a
| SECRET inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside
| the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to
| find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it"
| (Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban)
|
| In other words, a SECRET (eg, the location of a family in hiding, like
| the Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper (in
| our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody else
| – not even the subjects of the secret themselves – can divulge the
| secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed
| Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been
| able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only people who
| ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail had told
| directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the
information.
[clipped]

So you can, in theory, cast this charm on yourself then become complete
invisible in this "Ignore Me Completely" magical invisibility field? All
required to become visible again is to state that they are there to
themselves.

JKR should write "Hogwarts: A History" to fill time and release book #7
"Harry Potter and the Stained Bedsheets" only a few months before the
seventh movie is released. If only to clear up all the vague messiness in
plotting so far by clearly defining just how certain magical objects work
and what the limits, range, power requirements, etc... of the variety of
magic introduced as well as open up backstory options if she wishes to
continue the concept with other minor characters and their lives.

For example, the "Unplottable Charm" might simply be a variation of the
"Ignore Me Completely" Fidelius Charm (which can be what is hiding Hogwarts
from the Muggle population).

[gjw]

On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 11:21:24 -0400, "George Johnson"

Post by George Johnson
|
| A lot of people are givning properties to this charm that simply cannot
| be. SO - again - here is what JKR said about it on her web site and in
| the books -
|
| "an immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a
| SECRET inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside
| the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to
| find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it"
| (Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban)
|
| In other words, a SECRET (eg, the location of a family in hiding, like
| the Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper (in
| our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody else
| – not even the subjects of the secret themselves – can divulge the
| secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed
| Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been
| able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only people who
| ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail had told
| directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the
information.
[clipped]
So you can, in theory, cast this charm on yourself then become complete
invisible in this "Ignore Me Completely" magical invisibility field? All
required to become visible again is to state that they are there to
themselves.
JKR should write "Hogwarts: A History" to fill time and release book #7
"Harry Potter and the Stained Bedsheets" only a few months before the
seventh movie is released. If only to clear up all the vague messiness in
plotting so far by clearly defining just how certain magical objects work
and what the limits, range, power requirements, etc... of the variety of
magic introduced as well as open up backstory options if she wishes to
continue the concept with other minor characters and their lives.

Seriously, since she has said more than once that she might publish a
history or encyclopedia of the magical world, she should first have
all of her rabid fans submit questions that they need answered. All
she has to do is post a notice to this effect on her website (or
notify the news media to spread the word), then hire a few helpers to
eliminate duplicate questions and produce a tidy list of the most
frequently asked questions and the most interesting ones.

Then, with list in hand, she can proceed to write the final reference
book and can be sure that she has covered all the bases. If nothing
else, it should save her a lot of time later, since people wouldn't
barrage her with questions if all the answers were to be found in one
handy volume.