Discussion:
A micro-gripe about Azkaban movie
(too old to reply)
Metaphorica
2004-06-28 20:43:38 UTC
Permalink
Although I loved the film, just one thing got me...

Did anyone notice how the Hogwarts Express has an authentic
steam-train exterior, but has the interior of a British Rail train?
You know, the blue patterned felt seats, and the cream sliding door?
And was that one of those red 'No Smoking' signs? On the Hogwarts
Express?

Just a minor gripe, in an otherwise brilliant film.
Greg Heilers
2004-06-28 21:41:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Metaphorica
Although I loved the film, just one thing got me...
Did anyone notice how the Hogwarts Express has an authentic
steam-train exterior, but has the interior of a British Rail train?
You know, the blue patterned felt seats, and the cream sliding door?
And was that one of those red 'No Smoking' signs? On the Hogwarts
Express?
Just a minor gripe, in an otherwise brilliant film.
Nothing new here though. This is no different than the
"new" Volkswagen Beetle. On the outside, it kinda-sorta
looks like the old classic. But underneath and inside...
it bears *no* resemblence to the genuine article. It is
mere symbolism over substance, meant to appease the Yuppies.
--
--

Greg Heilers
Registered Linux user #328317 - SlackWare 9.1
Toon
2004-06-29 10:15:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Metaphorica
Although I loved the film, just one thing got me...
Did anyone notice how the Hogwarts Express has an authentic
steam-train exterior, but has the interior of a British Rail train?
You know, the blue patterned felt seats, and the cream sliding door?
And was that one of those red 'No Smoking' signs? On the Hogwarts
Express?
Just a minor gripe, in an otherwise brilliant film.
Oh those wacky wizards.
----
Free Report: How To Write A Book in 14 Days or Less! http://www.mcssl.com/app/aftrack.asp?afid=114999

----
steamboy
2004-07-20 22:55:42 UTC
Permalink
‘The Hogwarts Express' is a train formed from Ex GWR ‘Hall' Class
locomotive 5972 ‘Olton Hall' and 4 British Railways 1960's coaches.
They would appear to use Second Class corridor compartment type
vehicles. The locomotive, rake of coaches, crew and operation of the
train was organised by the West Coast Railway Company based in
Carforth. The train is authentic and as built or at least preserved,
though the loco is in Hogwarts Railways Red not Great Western Railway
Green as built.
2***@wongfaye.com
2004-07-21 05:27:24 UTC
Permalink
whats the point anyway?

the train doesn't have to look old I just assume they need the steam engine
to eliminate potential ecclectricity problems of a diesel electric
and they can couple any car they want to it

we can see the problem of electricity around magic when the lights go out

of course why hermione didnt whip out a wand and lighen up the place is beyond me
Richard Eney
2004-07-21 12:08:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by 2***@wongfaye.com
whats the point anyway?
the train doesn't have to look old I just assume they need the steam engine
to eliminate potential ecclectricity problems of a diesel electric
and they can couple any car they want to it
A steam engine is more in keeping with the generally 19th-century style
of the wizarding world. Also, steam engines have been perceived as
magical entities by people from low-tech cultures who saw them for the
first time. They are very like dragons, breathing fire and smoke, and
with a loud whistling call, but constrained to run along tracks and be
useful.
Post by 2***@wongfaye.com
we can see the problem of electricity around magic when the lights go out
of course why hermione didnt whip out a wand and lighen up the place is beyond me
When a Dementor is around, it takes more magic to make a light and it's
hard to summon up enough strength to do it. It took Harry a while to
learn to do it even with a boggart-Dementor fake. Hermione was faced
with a real Dementor and she had no experience with it; she didn't know
what its reaction to someone making a light might be.

=Tamar
2***@wongfaye.com
2004-07-21 23:06:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Eney
When a Dementor is around, it takes more magic to make a light and it's
hard to summon up enough strength to do it. It took Harry a while to
learn to do it even with a boggart-Dementor fake. Hermione was faced
with a real Dementor and she had no experience with it; she didn't know
what its reaction to someone making a light might be.
what makes you say that? i was saying to make a wand light not a patronus

also she had no idea it was anything but the train breaking down
Richard Eney
2004-07-22 07:02:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by 2***@wongfaye.com
Post by Richard Eney
When a Dementor is around, it takes more magic to make a light and it's
hard to summon up enough strength to do it. It took Harry a while to
learn to do it even with a boggart-Dementor fake. Hermione was faced
with a real Dementor and she had no experience with it; she didn't know
what its reaction to someone making a light might be.
what makes you say that? i was saying to make a wand light not a patronus
also she had no idea it was anything but the train breaking down
I seem to have combined several comments. I'll try to separate them
to make my response clearer.

Dementors are the personification of clinical depression. When a
Dementor is around, it is hard to summon enough energy to bother
to open your eyes, let alone light a wand with focused mental
control and channeled magic.

The first thing that happened was the train stopped and the lights went
out. The Hogwarts Express hadn't had that kind of problem the previous
two years. Hermione no doubt has experience of ordinary trains, which
do occasionally have such problems, and she may have expected the lights
to go back on in a minute or two. Even ordinary trains usually start
up again soon, and the Hogwarts train is magical and well maintained.
She had no need to make a light right away.

The next thing that happened was the "cold effect" of the approaching
Dementor - the window frosted over. At this point they knew something
weird was happening, but not just what. 'Wait and watch' is the order
of the day. Then the Dementor arrived.

Like the others, even Ron as far as we know, Hermione had never seen
or heard of Dementors before. She had no idea what it could or would
do. Hermione had no way to know whether it would only be made more
dangerous if someone made a light and annoyed it.

Trying to actually do something when there's a Dementor around
is very hard. Harry practiced trying to do something against a
boggart-Dementor, and it took him quite a while (in the books)
and even the spell he produced was not the fully-formed corporeal
Patronus he later managed to make. It was just a light, and it
was barely strong enough to deal with a boggart-imitation.
Harry could not repel the real Dementors the first time he
tried, later in the book.

It was even worse for Harry because his boggart was something that
actually could drain his energy, unlike the other kids' boggarts
that were just things they feared.

But my point is that even a boggart-Dementor is very hard to resist,
because it genuinely can drain some energy from you. A real one
is many times worse. With no idea what she was even fighting
against, Hermione probably couldn't have made a light just then.
The Hogwarts train has to have strong, reliable magic running it,
yet the train lights went out before the Dementors were even
close enough to frost the windows. A third-year student's
newly-learned Lumos spell isn't likely to stand a chance.

=Tamar
BriD
2004-07-21 17:30:01 UTC
Permalink
?The Hogwarts Express' is a train formed from Ex GWR ?Hall' Class
locomotive 5972 ?Olton Hall' and 4 British Railways 1960's coaches.
They would appear to use Second Class corridor compartment type
vehicles. The locomotive, rake of coaches, crew and operation of the
train was organised by the West Coast Railway Company based in
Carforth. The train is authentic and as built or at least preserved,
though the loco is in Hogwarts Railways Red not Great Western Railway
Green as built.
Wouldn't that be 3rd class? IIRC their was no second class in the 1960s :-)

BriD
Louis Epstein
2004-07-22 05:32:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by BriD
?The Hogwarts Express' is a train formed from Ex GWR ?Hall' Class
locomotive 5972 ?Olton Hall' and 4 British Railways 1960's coaches.
They would appear to use Second Class corridor compartment type
vehicles. The locomotive, rake of coaches, crew and operation of the
train was organised by the West Coast Railway Company based in
Carforth. The train is authentic and as built or at least preserved,
though the loco is in Hogwarts Railways Red not Great Western Railway
Green as built.
Wouldn't that be 3rd class? IIRC their was no second class in the 1960s :-)
I thought 2nd class lasted until the 1980s and 3rd class had disappeared
long before?

(2nd became Standard)

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
BriD
2004-07-21 17:30:07 UTC
Permalink
?The Hogwarts Express' is a train formed from Ex GWR ?Hall' Class
locomotive 5972 ?Olton Hall' and 4 British Railways 1960's coaches.
They would appear to use Second Class corridor compartment type
vehicles. The locomotive, rake of coaches, crew and operation of the
train was organised by the West Coast Railway Company based in
Carforth. The train is authentic and as built or at least preserved,
though the loco is in Hogwarts Railways Red not Great Western Railway
Green as built.
Wouldn't that be 3rd class? IIRC there was no second class in the 1960s :-)

BriD
BriD
2004-07-21 18:01:29 UTC
Permalink
?The Hogwarts Express' is a train formed from Ex GWR ?Hall' Class
locomotive 5972 ?Olton Hall' and 4 British Railways 1960's coaches.
They would appear to use Second Class corridor compartment type
vehicles. The locomotive, rake of coaches, crew and operation of the
train was organised by the West Coast Railway Company based in
Carforth. The train is authentic and as built or at least preserved,
though the loco is in Hogwarts Railways Red not Great Western Railway
Green as built.
Wouldn't that be 3rd class? IIRC their was no second class in the 1960s :-)

BriD
steamboy
2004-07-21 22:28:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by BriD
?The Hogwarts Express' is a train formed from Ex GWR ?Hall' Class
locomotive 5972 ?Olton Hall' and 4 British Railways 1960's coaches.
They would appear to use Second Class corridor compartment type
vehicles. The locomotive, rake of coaches, crew and operation of the
train was organised by the West Coast Railway Company based in
Carforth. The train is authentic and as built or at least preserved,
though the loco is in Hogwarts Railways Red not Great Western Railway
Green as built.
Wouldn't that be 3rd class? IIRC their was no second class in the 1960s :-)
BriD
Well, most passengers would think of them as either 3rd or Standard
(to be PC) but guards and shunters refer to them as 'SK'. You are
right though and i sit corected...
BriD
2004-07-22 22:46:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by steamboy
Post by BriD
?The Hogwarts Express' is a train formed from Ex GWR ?Hall' Class
locomotive 5972 ?Olton Hall' and 4 British Railways 1960's coaches.
They would appear to use Second Class corridor compartment type
vehicles. The locomotive, rake of coaches, crew and operation of the
train was organised by the West Coast Railway Company based in
Carforth. The train is authentic and as built or at least preserved,
though the loco is in Hogwarts Railways Red not Great Western Railway
Green as built.
Wouldn't that be 3rd class? IIRC their was no second class in the 1960s :-)
BriD
Well, most passengers would think of them as either 3rd or Standard
(to be PC) but guards and shunters refer to them as 'SK'. You are
right though and i sit corected...
HTH Sorry about the multiple posts. It wasn't deliberate in fact I
dont know how I did it!!

BriD
Louis Epstein
2004-07-22 05:31:05 UTC
Permalink
?The Hogwarts Express' is a train formed from Ex GWR ?Hall' Class
locomotive 5972 ?Olton Hall' and 4 British Railways 1960's coaches.
They would appear to use Second Class corridor compartment type
vehicles.
I thought corridor compartments were the distinguishing
mark of First Class?
The locomotive, rake of coaches, crew and operation of the
train was organised by the West Coast Railway Company based in
Carforth. The train is authentic and as built or at least preserved,
though the loco is in Hogwarts Railways Red not Great Western Railway
Green as built.
-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
steamboy
2004-07-22 22:03:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Louis Epstein
?The Hogwarts Express' is a train formed from Ex GWR ?Hall' Class
locomotive 5972 ?Olton Hall' and 4 British Railways 1960's coaches.
They would appear to use Second Class corridor compartment type
vehicles.
I thought corridor compartments were the distinguishing
mark of First Class?
No, both First and Third class corridor compartment type coaches were
built by BR. In the standard (mainline) coaches the Third class
compartments were slightly narrower than First and were designed to
carry 8 people if need be with the Eastern, North Eastern, Scottish
and London Midland Regions fitting fold down armrests for 6 seats on
lightly loaded trains. fitting 8 passengers in is quite a squeeze.
First class compartments have armrests fitted so that no more than 6
can be accommodated.

Many people get confused about this and as i work/travel on a
preserved railway with lots of compartment stock i have noticed many
passengers who belive that compartments are for the first class.

SB
Igenlode Wordsmith
2004-07-26 23:20:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by steamboy
‘The Hogwarts Express' is a train formed from Ex GWR ‘Hall' Class
locomotive 5972 ‘Olton Hall' and 4 British Railways 1960's coaches.
[snip]
Post by steamboy
The train is authentic and as built or at least preserved,
though the loco is in Hogwarts Railways Red not Great Western Railway
Green as built.
I have to say I don't think the 'Hall' was a very suitable choice;
Great Western locos are simply too distinctive and unlike what most
people think of as children when asked to draw 'a steam engine', even
when painted pillar-box red. If I were asked to illustrate a
steam-hauled express, I wouldn't draw a Domeless Engine unless I
specifically *meant* it to be a GWR train; I'd have thought something
with a parallel boiler and a shiny brass dome (how about the T9, with
those six-and-a-half-foot driving wheels? <grin> Not that they'd ever
have been allowed to repaint that, of course) would have looked less...
peculiar. Or a 'Duchess'...

Still, provided it's got steam coming out of the funnel, it's 'Thomas
the Tank Engine' to most people anyway :-)
--
Igenlode <***@nym.alias.net> Lurker Extraordinaire

* He who loses his temper has lost the argument *
Igenlode Wordsmith
2004-07-26 23:20:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by steamboy
‘The Hogwarts Express' is a train formed from Ex GWR ‘Hall' Class
locomotive 5972 ‘Olton Hall' and 4 British Railways 1960's coaches.
[snip]
Post by steamboy
The train is authentic and as built or at least preserved,
though the loco is in Hogwarts Railways Red not Great Western Railway
Green as built.
I have to say I don't think the 'Hall' was a very suitable choice;
Great Western locos are simply too distinctive and unlike what most
people think of as children when asked to draw 'a steam engine', even
when painted pillar-box red. If I were asked to illustrate a
steam-hauled express, I wouldn't draw a Domeless Engine unless I
specifically *meant* it to be a GWR train; I'd have thought something
with a parallel boiler and a shiny brass dome (how about the T9, with
those six-and-a-half-foot driving wheels? <grin> Not that they'd ever
have been allowed to repaint that, of course) would have looked less...
peculiar. Or a 'Duchess'...

Still, provided it's got steam coming out of the funnel, it's 'Thomas
the Tank Engine' to most people anyway :-)
--
Igenlode <***@nym.alias.net> Lurker Extraordinaire

* He who loses his temper has lost the argument *
Louis Epstein
2004-07-28 00:08:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Igenlode Wordsmith
?The Hogwarts Express' is a train formed from Ex GWR ?Hall' Class
locomotive 5972 ?Olton Hall' and 4 British Railways 1960's coaches.
[snip]
The train is authentic and as built or at least preserved,
though the loco is in Hogwarts Railways Red not Great Western Railway
Green as built.
I have to say I don't think the 'Hall' was a very suitable choice;
Great Western locos are simply too distinctive and unlike what most
people think of as children when asked to draw 'a steam engine', even
when painted pillar-box red. If I were asked to illustrate a
steam-hauled express, I wouldn't draw a Domeless Engine unless I
specifically *meant* it to be a GWR train; I'd have thought something
with a parallel boiler and a shiny brass dome (how about the T9, with
those six-and-a-half-foot driving wheels? <grin> Not that they'd ever
have been allowed to repaint that, of course) would have looked less...
peculiar. Or a 'Duchess'...
Still, provided it's got steam coming out of the funnel, it's 'Thomas
the Tank Engine' to most people anyway :-)
Hmmm...can't say I know BRITISH locomotives at all well...
how would this compare to a New York Central Niagara class
(all of which have been destroyed)?
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/northern/nyc.html

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
Igenlode Wordsmith
2004-07-28 21:38:54 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by Louis Epstein
If I were asked to illustrate a steam-hauled express, I wouldn't draw a
Domeless Engine unless I specifically *meant* it to be a GWR train;
I'd have thought something with a parallel boiler and a shiny brass
dome (how about the T9, with those six-and-a-half-foot driving
wheels? <grin> Not that they'd ever have been allowed to repaint
that, of course) would have looked less... peculiar. Or a
'Duchess'...
[snip]
Post by Louis Epstein
Hmmm...can't say I know BRITISH locomotives at all well...
how would this compare to a New York Central Niagara class
(all of which have been destroyed)?
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/northern/nyc.html
Not at all, really... ;-)

http://www.planefacts.co.uk/railway/main/ will give you an overview of
British express engines, though the quality isn't that wonderful.

American and British locomotives diverged almost from the start; the
early American engines had to be wood-burners and travel over unfenced
land, thus acquiring the vast spark-arresting smokestacks, cow-catchers,
bells, headlamps and boiler-mounted sandboxes that look so cartoonish
to English eyes. They also had to be readily maintainable under the most
primitive of conditions, and as a result tended to have all their
moving parts on the *outside*, with the boiler simply suspended above
empty bar frames - making them appear somewhat 'inside-out'.

British locomotives of the same era were built to run through bridges
and tunnels constructed far earlier and far narrower than anything
across the American continent (one gets the impression that the
over-bridge, where a road passes *over* the railway, was an almost
unknown U.S. phenomenon, whereas they have always been very common
here) resulting in a much smaller loading-gauge. Overhead
electrification has only made matters worse in this respect, meaning
that a number of locomotives are now re-classified as being too large
to pass through bridges that were built a hundred years before the
engines themselves were designed - there isn't room for both locomotive
and wires!

Loco design was also influenced very strongly by aesthetic
considerations. Moving parts were kept *within* the (riveted plate)
frames - often the cylinders were also located within the frames,
beneath the smokebox, resulting in earlier express locomotives like the
T9 having no visible means of propulsion other than the smoothly
rotating connecting-rods!

Splashers are another un-American concept; curved wheel covers, like
'wings' on an old car, that protect and conceal the portion of the
driving-wheel emerging above the level of the footplate. ('Footplate': a
secure horizontal surface running all the way around the locomotive at
the level of the top of the frames, approx. cab-floor height, on which
the fireman or loco cleaner can stand to reach the top of the boiler,
or, in early days, to pour sand on the rails manually to improve grip.)
The early express engines, like the penny-farthing bicycle, often had
vast driving wheels (e.g. the 'Eight-Foot Singles', where the single pair
of driving wheels reached *above* the top of the boiler!) covered by
elaborately decorated splashers; and a curved name-plate mounted atop
the splasher remained the standard position for most locomotive names
until the end of steam.

Victorian locomotives, like most of their engineering, were objects of
immense civic pride, and polished, painted and decorated accordingly.
Boilers were still relatively small and driving wheels relatively
large, producing tall splashers, domes (often brass) and funnels. They
were often surprisingly fast - the T9 class, known as 'Greyhounds', were
designed in 1899 and could run at 90mph - but pulled relatively short
trains compared to their later, bulkier descendants, let alone their
distant American cousins.

Here is a picture of the National Railway Museum's one surviving T9 in
similar pose to your 'Niagara' class - a greyhound versus a buffalo :-)

http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/t9.html

Here's a whole page of T9 pictures (see also other three pages); aren't
they gorgeous? :-)
http://www.semg.org.uk/steam/t9class_04.html


The 'Duchesses' were designed about fifty years later, and as you can
see, by this stage steam locomotive design was really starting to come
up against the limits of the loading gauge. (Re-gauging the entire
network would have been utterly impractical...)

http://www.southernsteamtrains.com/duchess.htm

This locomotive isn't that much faster than the T9, but far more
powerful; this is more the image of a standard 20th-century express
engine, whereas the T9 is a machine of the E.Nesbit era. (The 'Hall',
in design terms, is somewhere in between.) The boiler has vastly
increased in diameter, and the cab and funnel have become squat and
massive; the tender is now the same height as the coaches behind,
holding far more water to feed the new boiler capacity.

Compared to a 'Niagara', however, this is still an air-smoothed tiddler!
The cylinders and valve gear are now visible on the outside, as are the
steam pipes to the smoke-box, but the vast majority of her workings are
still neatly hidden away, and there are only six driving wheels. The
4-6-0 wheel arrangement remained pretty much standard for express
engines until the end, with extensions into 4-6-4 'Pacifics', with an
extra little trailing bogie to support a larger firebox. In the U.S.A.
even ten coupled driving wheels often weren't enough, and multiple
articulated power bogies became the norm, with vast Garratt and Mallet
locomotives being designed to accelerate huge trains.

American railway wisdom states that the railroad is obviously only
suited to carrying freight; modern English wisdom states that slow and
bulky goods traffic clearly gets in the way of the really profitable
business, carrying passengers :-)
--
Igenlode (railway enthusiast)

* Never assume malice when ignorance is a possibility *
Louis Epstein
2004-07-29 17:37:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Igenlode Wordsmith
[snip]
Post by Louis Epstein
If I were asked to illustrate a steam-hauled express, I wouldn't draw
a Domeless Engine unless I specifically *meant* it to be a GWR train;
I'd have thought something with a parallel boiler and a shiny brass
dome (how about the T9, with those six-and-a-half-foot driving
wheels? <grin> Not that they'd ever have been allowed to repaint
that, of course) would have looked less... peculiar. Or a
'Duchess'...
[snip]
Post by Louis Epstein
Hmmm...can't say I know BRITISH locomotives at all well...
how would this compare to a New York Central Niagara class
(all of which have been destroyed)?
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/northern/nyc.html
Not at all, really... ;-)
http://www.planefacts.co.uk/railway/main/ will give you an overview of
British express engines, though the quality isn't that wonderful.
American and British locomotives diverged almost from the start; the
early American engines had to be wood-burners and travel over unfenced
land, thus acquiring the vast spark-arresting smokestacks, cow-catchers,
bells, headlamps and boiler-mounted sandboxes that look so cartoonish
to English eyes. They also had to be readily maintainable under the most
primitive of conditions, and as a result tended to have all their
moving parts on the *outside*, with the boiler simply suspended above
empty bar frames - making them appear somewhat 'inside-out'.
British locomotives of the same era were built to run through bridges
and tunnels constructed far earlier and far narrower than anything
across the American continent (one gets the impression that the
over-bridge, where a road passes *over* the railway, was an almost
unknown U.S. phenomenon, whereas they have always been very
common here) resulting in a much smaller loading-gauge. Overhead
electrification has only made matters worse in this respect, meaning
that a number of locomotives are now re-classified as being too large
to pass through bridges that were built a hundred years before the
engines themselves were designed - there isn't room for both locomotive
and wires!
Loco design was also influenced very strongly by aesthetic
considerations. Moving parts were kept *within* the (riveted plate)
frames - often the cylinders were also located within the frames,
beneath the smokebox, resulting in earlier express locomotives like
the T9 having no visible means of propulsion other than the smoothly
rotating connecting-rods!
Splashers are another un-American concept; curved wheel covers, like
'wings' on an old car, that protect and conceal the portion of the
driving-wheel emerging above the level of the footplate. ('Footplate': a
secure horizontal surface running all the way around the locomotive at
the level of the top of the frames, approx. cab-floor height, on which
the fireman or loco cleaner can stand to reach the top of the boiler,
or, in early days, to pour sand on the rails manually to improve grip.)
The early express engines, like the penny-farthing bicycle, often had
vast driving wheels (e.g. the 'Eight-Foot Singles', where the single pair
of driving wheels reached *above* the top of the boiler!) covered by
elaborately decorated splashers; and a curved name-plate mounted atop
the splasher remained the standard position for most locomotive names
until the end of steam.
Victorian locomotives, like most of their engineering, were objects of
immense civic pride, and polished, painted and decorated accordingly.
Boilers were still relatively small and driving wheels relatively
large, producing tall splashers, domes (often brass) and funnels. They
were often surprisingly fast - the T9 class, known as 'Greyhounds', were
designed in 1899 and could run at 90mph - but pulled relatively short
trains compared to their later, bulkier descendants, let alone their
distant American cousins.
Here is a picture of the National Railway Museum's one surviving T9 in
similar pose to your 'Niagara' class - a greyhound versus a buffalo :-)
http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/t9.html
Here's a whole page of T9 pictures (see also other three pages); aren't
they gorgeous? :-)
http://www.semg.org.uk/steam/t9class_04.html
The 'Duchesses' were designed about fifty years later, and as you can
see, by this stage steam locomotive design was really starting to come
up against the limits of the loading gauge. (Re-gauging the entire
network would have been utterly impractical...)
Aren't American and British tracks on the same 4ft 8.5in gauge that
derives ultimately from the Roman wagons?

As I understand it,even though modern technology would enable and
greatly benefit from a wider gauge,even NOW (in the Baltic States)
wider gauges are being converted to the standard solely for the
purpose of standardization.
Post by Igenlode Wordsmith
http://www.southernsteamtrains.com/duchess.htm
This locomotive isn't that much faster than the T9, but far more
powerful; this is more the image of a standard 20th-century express
engine, whereas the T9 is a machine of the E.Nesbit era. (The 'Hall',
in design terms, is somewhere in between.) The boiler has vastly
increased in diameter, and the cab and funnel have become squat and
massive; the tender is now the same height as the coaches behind,
holding far more water to feed the new boiler capacity.
Compared to a 'Niagara', however, this is still an air-smoothed tiddler!
The Niagara is something of a peak of the genre,
though the 4-8-8-4 Big Boy of the UP was the
largest ever.

(So what takes students to the Salem Witches' Institute?)
Post by Igenlode Wordsmith
The cylinders and valve gear are now visible on the outside, as are the
steam pipes to the smoke-box, but the vast majority of her workings are
still neatly hidden away, and there are only six driving wheels. The
4-6-0 wheel arrangement remained pretty much standard for express
engines until the end, with extensions into 4-6-4 'Pacifics', with an
extra little trailing bogie to support a larger firebox. In the U.S.A.
even ten coupled driving wheels often weren't enough, and multiple
articulated power bogies became the norm, with vast Garratt and Mallet
locomotives being designed to accelerate huge trains.
American railway wisdom states that the railroad is obviously only
suited to carrying freight; modern English wisdom states that slow and
bulky goods traffic clearly gets in the way of the really profitable
business, carrying passengers :-)
I am certainly more interested in passenger than freight rail myself.
I wish the big railroads understood that people who don't have trains
they can ride available won't be concerned about supporting the rail
network no matter how many things they buy or own were shipped by train!

A time-travel/alternate-history fiction project of mine has a great
deal to do with altered evolution of the American rail network.Let
me know if you want to discuss it off here,it has nothing to do with
Potter!

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
Greg Heilers
2004-07-31 04:40:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Louis Epstein
A time-travel/alternate-history fiction project of mine has a great
deal to do with altered evolution of the American rail network.Let
me know if you want to discuss it off here,it has nothing to do with
Potter!
This thread may have nothing to do with "Potter", but it is far more
intriguing, and far more educational, than most of the Potter-related
threads on this board! Keep it up!

And I for one, would be interested in your "alternate history" project.

:o)
--
Greg Heilers
Registered Linux user #328317 - SlackWare 9.1
.....

In Marseilles they make half the toilet
soap we consume in America, but
the Marseillaise only have a vague
theoretical idea of its use, which they
have obtained from books of travel.
-- Mark Twain
Louis Epstein
2004-07-31 20:10:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg Heilers
Post by Louis Epstein
A time-travel/alternate-history fiction project of mine has a great
deal to do with altered evolution of the American rail network.Let
me know if you want to discuss it off here,it has nothing to do with
Potter!
This thread may have nothing to do with "Potter", but it is far more
intriguing, and far more educational, than most of the Potter-related
threads on this board! Keep it up!
And I for one, would be interested in your "alternate history" project.
:o)
I suppose I can email you about it,stripping out the nospams.
(Gheilers at earthlink-dot-net?)

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
Greg Heilers
2004-08-01 01:34:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Louis Epstein
Post by Greg Heilers
Post by Louis Epstein
A time-travel/alternate-history fiction project of mine has a great
deal to do with altered evolution of the American rail network.Let
me know if you want to discuss it off here,it has nothing to do with
Potter!
This thread may have nothing to do with "Potter", but it is far more
intriguing, and far more educational, than most of the Potter-related
threads on this board! Keep it up!
And I for one, would be interested in your "alternate history" project.
:o)
I suppose I can email you about it,stripping out the nospams.
(Gheilers at earthlink-dot-net?)
-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
That would be the email address. I really enjoy alternate-history
"historical" novels....such as some of the Harry Turtledove stuff,
--
Greg Heilers
Registered Linux User #328317 - SlackWare 9.1
.....

"The way I see it, I figure the YANKEES had
something to do with it."

- Maj. Gen. George Pickett, when asked
where the fault lie for the Confederacy's
loss at Gettysburg
Louis Epstein
2004-08-02 02:14:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg Heilers
Post by Louis Epstein
Post by Greg Heilers
Post by Louis Epstein
A time-travel/alternate-history fiction project of mine has a great
deal to do with altered evolution of the American rail network.Let
me know if you want to discuss it off here,it has nothing to do with
Potter!
This thread may have nothing to do with "Potter", but it is far more
intriguing, and far more educational, than most of the Potter-related
threads on this board! Keep it up!
And I for one, would be interested in your "alternate history" project.
:o)
I suppose I can email you about it,stripping out the nospams.
(Gheilers at earthlink-dot-net?)
That would be the email address. I really enjoy alternate-history
"historical" novels....such as some of the Harry Turtledove stuff,
Emailed you privately,though this isn't quite that mold.
I gather Igenlode's interest has been exhausted.
Post by Greg Heilers
Post by Louis Epstein
-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
Igenlode Wordsmith
2004-08-05 02:34:15 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by Louis Epstein
Post by Greg Heilers
Post by Louis Epstein
I suppose I can email you about it,stripping out the nospams.
(Gheilers at earthlink-dot-net?)
That would be the email address. I really enjoy alternate-history
"historical" novels....such as some of the Harry Turtledove stuff,
Emailed you privately,though this isn't quite that mold.
I gather Igenlode's interest has been exhausted.
Igenlode has been having extraordinary difficulties in posting anything
at all to any newsgroup for the past week, and is receiving zero
incoming email :-(

(Testing, testing, one two three...)
--
Igenlode

'Eagle's Daughter' - historical romance now on-line at
http://curry.250x.com/Tower/Fiction/eagle/
Louis Epstein
2004-08-05 15:51:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Igenlode Wordsmith
[snip]
Post by Louis Epstein
Post by Greg Heilers
Post by Louis Epstein
I suppose I can email you about it,stripping out the nospams.
(Gheilers at earthlink-dot-net?)
That would be the email address. I really enjoy alternate-history
"historical" novels....such as some of the Harry Turtledove stuff,
Emailed you privately,though this isn't quite that mold.
I gather Igenlode's interest has been exhausted.
Igenlode has been having extraordinary difficulties in posting anything
at all to any newsgroup for the past week, and is receiving zero
incoming email :-(
(Testing, testing, one two three...)
Well,I sent Greg the email and as far as I can tell he hasn't answered.
If you want to see more on that concept I can do some tests...

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
Greg Heilers
2004-08-05 21:04:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Louis Epstein
Post by Igenlode Wordsmith
[snip]
Post by Louis Epstein
Post by Greg Heilers
Post by Louis Epstein
I suppose I can email you about it,stripping out the nospams.
(Gheilers at earthlink-dot-net?)
That would be the email address. I really enjoy alternate-history
"historical" novels....such as some of the Harry Turtledove stuff,
Emailed you privately,though this isn't quite that mold.
I gather Igenlode's interest has been exhausted.
Igenlode has been having extraordinary difficulties in posting anything
at all to any newsgroup for the past week, and is receiving zero
incoming email :-(
(Testing, testing, one two three...)
Well,I sent Greg the email and as far as I can tell he hasn't answered.
If you want to see more on that concept I can do some tests...
-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
Sorry about that...lol.

I have been out of town, and your email was saved here at home.

Very interesting, what you have come up with so far. And I like
your ideas about the parallel universes. Larry Niven wrote a very
nice essay about the same topic, with regards to using that idea
in conjunction with time travel.

Keep up the great work!!
--
Greg Heilers
Registered Linux user #328317 - SlackWare 9.1
.....

"Democracy, is two wolves and a lamb voting
on what to have for lunch.
Liberty, is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."

-- Benjamin Franklin
Louis Epstein
2004-08-06 03:50:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg Heilers
Post by Louis Epstein
Post by Igenlode Wordsmith
[snip]
Post by Louis Epstein
Post by Greg Heilers
Post by Louis Epstein
I suppose I can email you about it,stripping out the nospams.
(Gheilers at earthlink-dot-net?)
That would be the email address. I really enjoy alternate-history
"historical" novels....such as some of the Harry Turtledove stuff,
Emailed you privately,though this isn't quite that mold.
I gather Igenlode's interest has been exhausted.
Igenlode has been having extraordinary difficulties in posting anything
at all to any newsgroup for the past week, and is receiving zero
incoming email :-(
(Testing, testing, one two three...)
Well,I sent Greg the email and as far as I can tell he hasn't answered.
If you want to see more on that concept I can do some tests...
Sorry about that...lol.
I have been out of town, and your email was saved here at home.
OK,I thought you'd answer with any queries or whatnot.
Post by Greg Heilers
Very interesting, what you have come up with so far. And I like
your ideas about the parallel universes. Larry Niven wrote a very
nice essay about the same topic, with regards to using that idea
in conjunction with time travel.
Keep up the great work!!
I eventually noticed every tenet of my Time Wave theory in
something or other published before I was born,though I don't
think anyone has formulated it quite the way I have.
Post by Greg Heilers
Post by Louis Epstein
-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
Igenlode Wordsmith
2004-08-05 21:59:10 UTC
Permalink
Well, that seemed to work...

(N.B. Louis: I can see the headers of whatever it was that you wrote in
response to my test post, but I shan't be able to see the body until
after this has already gone out - so forgive any overlap!)
[megasnip]
Post by Louis Epstein
Post by Igenlode Wordsmith
The 'Duchesses' were designed about fifty years later, and as you can
see, by this stage steam locomotive design was really starting to come
up against the limits of the loading gauge. (Re-gauging the entire
network would have been utterly impractical...)
Aren't American and British tracks on the same 4ft 8.5in gauge that
derives ultimately from the Roman wagons?
'Loading gauge' doesn't refer to (or not only to) the space between
rails: it refers to the permissible height and width of loads that can
be carried on a given railway system. Traditionally, every goods yard
used to have a loading gauge somewhere by the side of the track,
looking a little like a gallows with a curved bar hanging from it - if
the load on a wagon hit the side of the post or fouled the bar at the
top, then this was a warning that it would not pass through tunnels and
bridges on that network.
Post by Louis Epstein
As I understand it,even though modern technology would enable and
greatly benefit from a wider gauge, even NOW (in the Baltic States)
wider gauges are being converted to the standard solely for the
purpose of standardization.
In Britain, there is the slightly odd case of the former broad gauge
(seven-foot) network built by the Great Western Railway under Brunel.
This was all re-gauged over a hundred years ago in the name of
standardization, but obviously the original embankment widths, tunnel
sizes etc. remained much wider than those on other lines.

(This may be one reason why GWR locomotives such as 'Olton Hall' tend to
have problems with the front corners of the cylinders fouling platform
edges when they are run over other parts of the railways. Ironically,
due to post-war alterations to stations and lineside structures, GWR
engines are now banned from certain former GW main lines as well, since
they no longer have sufficient clearance to pass through on the routes
they were built for!)


[snip]
Post by Louis Epstein
The Niagara is something of a peak of the genre, though the 4-8-8-4 Big
Boy of the UP was the largest ever.
The Big Boys are what we tend to think of when someone says 'American
steam' - unless it's something from the wood-burning era! :-)
Post by Louis Epstein
(So what takes students to the Salem Witches' Institute?)
The picture on the front of the 'adult' edition of "Harry Potter and
the Philosopher's Stone" is pretty obviously a large American
locomotive of some variety... ;-) (Odd, really, since they *couldn't*
sell those in the US market!)


[snip]
Post by Louis Epstein
Post by Igenlode Wordsmith
American railway wisdom states that the railroad is obviously only
suited to carrying freight; modern English wisdom states that slow and
bulky goods traffic clearly gets in the way of the really profitable
business, carrying passengers :-)
I am certainly more interested in passenger than freight rail myself.
I wish the big railroads understood that people who don't have trains
they can ride available won't be concerned about supporting the rail
network no matter how many things they buy or own were shipped by train!
Not many of the latter round here :-(

Even the Post Office has abolished its famous on-board sorting trains
(the 'Night Mail crossing the Border') in favour of a vast fleet of
lorries driving across the country - the early morning newspaper and
milk trains went long ago - and almost all the goods yards have been
sold off for high-profit office buildings, or (irony of ironies) car
parks. The expresses don't carry luggage vans or even guard's
compartments any more (too bad if your cases can't be crammed under the
seat, let alone if you want to take a bicycle with you) and the local
passenger stock is gradually reverting to the 'cattle-truck' era, with
more and more standing space and less and less seating in each new
rolling stock design, to squeeze in more commuters at peak hours.
Post by Louis Epstein
A time-travel/alternate-history fiction project of mine has a great
deal to do with altered evolution of the American rail network
At what historical era?

(The last alternate-history setting I read - some time ago now - dealt
with the effect on the world of Henry Tudor's defeat at the Battle of
Bosworth (1485)! The hypothesis was that a Plantagenet England (as
opposed to the miserly Henry) would very probably have agreed to fund
Christopher Columbus at the time when he approached the English court
for support for his venture to the Indies, long before he applied to
Ferdinand and Isabella. Thus Spain would never have conquered the New
World, and the history of Europe, America and probably the rest of the
world would have been very radically different...)
--
Igenlode Wordsmith

'In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant.' Well, for
years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. And you may quote me on that.
Louis Epstein
2004-08-06 03:44:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Igenlode Wordsmith
Well, that seemed to work...
(N.B. Louis: I can see the headers of whatever it was that you wrote in
response to my test post, but I shan't be able to see the body until
after this has already gone out - so forgive any overlap!)
[megasnip]
I go with a "Reply-To:" address myself.
Post by Igenlode Wordsmith
Post by Louis Epstein
Post by Igenlode Wordsmith
The 'Duchesses' were designed about fifty years later, and as you can
see, by this stage steam locomotive design was really starting to come
up against the limits of the loading gauge. (Re-gauging the entire
network would have been utterly impractical...)
Aren't American and British tracks on the same 4ft 8.5in gauge that
derives ultimately from the Roman wagons?
'Loading gauge' doesn't refer to (or not only to) the space between
rails: it refers to the permissible height and width of loads that can
be carried on a given railway system. Traditionally, every goods yard
used to have a loading gauge somewhere by the side of the track,
looking a little like a gallows with a curved bar hanging from it - if
the load on a wagon hit the side of the post or fouled the bar at the
top, then this was a warning that it would not pass through tunnels and
bridges on that network.
No standard width for boxcars or passenger carriages?
Post by Igenlode Wordsmith
Post by Louis Epstein
As I understand it,even though modern technology would enable and
greatly benefit from a wider gauge, even NOW (in the Baltic States)
wider gauges are being converted to the standard solely for the
purpose of standardization.
In Britain, there is the slightly odd case of the former broad gauge
(seven-foot) network built by the Great Western Railway under Brunel.
This was all re-gauged over a hundred years ago in the name of
standardization, but obviously the original embankment widths, tunnel
sizes etc. remained much wider than those on other lines.
(This may be one reason why GWR locomotives such as 'Olton Hall' tend to
have problems with the front corners of the cylinders fouling platform
edges when they are run over other parts of the railways. Ironically,
due to post-war alterations to stations and lineside structures, GWR
engines are now banned from certain former GW main lines as well, since
they no longer have sufficient clearance to pass through on the routes
they were built for!)
I think a system of modern wide-gauge main lines would be useful
even if expensive...can indulge in fiction at least!
Post by Igenlode Wordsmith
[snip]
Post by Louis Epstein
The Niagara is something of a peak of the genre, though the 4-8-8-4 Big
Boy of the UP was the largest ever.
The Big Boys are what we tend to think of when someone says 'American
steam' - unless it's something from the wood-burning era! :-)
But the articulateds are more Western than Eastern US in style.

I'm a New Yorker,I think of the pride of the New York Central.
Post by Igenlode Wordsmith
Post by Louis Epstein
(So what takes students to the Salem Witches' Institute?)
The picture on the front of the 'adult' edition of "Harry Potter and
the Philosopher's Stone" is pretty obviously a large American
locomotive of some variety... ;-) (Odd, really, since they *couldn't*
sell those in the US market!)
I think a train crossing the USA would be more cumbersome
than one from London to the Scottish Highlands,anyway.
One hopes it would not take all the students on at one stop!
Post by Igenlode Wordsmith
[snip]
Post by Louis Epstein
Post by Igenlode Wordsmith
American railway wisdom states that the railroad is obviously only
suited to carrying freight; modern English wisdom states that slow and
bulky goods traffic clearly gets in the way of the really profitable
business, carrying passengers :-)
I am certainly more interested in passenger than freight rail myself.
I wish the big railroads understood that people who don't have trains
they can ride available won't be concerned about supporting the rail
network no matter how many things they buy or own were shipped by train!
Not many of the latter round here :-(
Even the Post Office has abolished its famous on-board sorting trains
(the 'Night Mail crossing the Border') in favour of a vast fleet of
lorries driving across the country - the early morning newspaper and
milk trains went long ago - and almost all the goods yards have been
sold off for high-profit office buildings, or (irony of ironies) car
parks. The expresses don't carry luggage vans or even guard's
compartments any more (too bad if your cases can't be crammed under the
seat, let alone if you want to take a bicycle with you) and the local
passenger stock is gradually reverting to the 'cattle-truck' era, with
more and more standing space and less and less seating in each new
rolling stock design, to squeeze in more commuters at peak hours.
Hmm,some commuter trains here have specific space set aside for
bicycles.

The new M-7 cars here in the NY area have smaller seating capacity
but that's a matter of disabled access,standing is always discouraged.
Post by Igenlode Wordsmith
Post by Louis Epstein
A time-travel/alternate-history fiction project of mine has a great
deal to do with altered evolution of the American rail network
At what historical era?
This particular one branches off in 1892.
Post by Igenlode Wordsmith
(The last alternate-history setting I read - some time ago now - dealt
with the effect on the world of Henry Tudor's defeat at the Battle of
Bosworth (1485)! The hypothesis was that a Plantagenet England (as
opposed to the miserly Henry) would very probably have agreed to fund
Christopher Columbus at the time when he approached the English court
for support for his venture to the Indies, long before he applied to
Ferdinand and Isabella. Thus Spain would never have conquered the New
World, and the history of Europe, America and probably the rest of the
world would have been very radically different...)
I have another (no time travel involved)
that takes a daughter of Mary of England and Philip of Spain
and marries her to a son of Mary of Scotland and Francis II of France
(both marriages being historically childless) and gets him elected
Holy Roman Emperor...resulting in a 17th century united Europe.

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
Igenlode Wordsmith
2004-08-12 01:10:57 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by Louis Epstein
Traditionally, every goods yard used to have a loading gauge
somewhere by the side of the track, looking a little like a gallows
with a curved bar hanging from it - if the load on a wagon hit the
side of the post or fouled the bar at the top, then this was a
warning that it would not pass through tunnels and bridges on that
network.
No standard width for boxcars or passenger carriages?
Vans and coaches fit a standard tunnel-shaped profile (with the
exception of a certain famous tunnel on the Hastings route which is a
few inches narrower than anywhere else in the country, necessitating
specially-built stock for that one line!) but that doesn't help much
when you're loading up open trucks, or vehicles on well-wagons (i.e. a
JCB or even a narrow-gauge locomotive), or even track panels. Before
containerisation, a high proportion of all loads - save for perishables
(ventilated vans) and livestock (ditto, but not the same ones!) - was
transported in open trucks, in a vast variety of shapes and sizes, many
of them loose-coupled (i.e. no vacuum pipes - all braking was carried
out by the guard from the brake-van at the rear and from the engine
brake); American 'box-cars' never really existed here.

How they managed to get the giraffes to keep their heads down in circus
trains I don't know :-)

[snip]
Post by Louis Epstein
I think a system of modern wide-gauge main lines would be useful
even if expensive...can indulge in fiction at least!
Not really practical where there is any significant amount of civil
engineering involved, i.e. cuttings, embankments, bridges. (Though that
doesn't seem to stop them widening motorways, at a reputed cost of
millions of pounds per mile...)


[snip]
Post by Louis Epstein
I think a train crossing the USA would be more cumbersome
than one from London to the Scottish Highlands,anyway.
One hopes it would not take all the students on at one stop!
I can't help feeling that there must be more than one wizarding school
in the whole of America - and probably more than just Beauxbatons,
Hogwarts and Durmstrang across the whole of Europe. I suppose the
American population is actually surprisingly low (only about four times
the total number in Britain alone, isn't it?, but even so the geography
of it would seem to make concentrating all the children in one school
very impractical. To send pupils from the West Coast to the East would
be like expecting Russian wizards to commute to London in order to
study!


[snip]
Post by Louis Epstein
The new M-7 cars here in the NY area have smaller seating capacity
but that's a matter of disabled access,standing is always discouraged.
Not much choice, in the rush-hour; in the Underground, for example,
there's barely room to stand on the platforms, let alone sit down in the
trains! And the trains *can't* run at a higher density - they've
already shortened the blocks between signals to such a degree that you
can stand on the bridge and see three or four trains stacked up before
you get to the curve...

The trouble is, they 'rationalised' out all the spare capacity (extra
sidings, little-used alternative routes, old rolling stock) on the
grounds that it was inefficient and passenger numbers were bound to
keep falling in the long term. What has actually happened is that the
situation on the roads has reached choking-point, and rail traffic
started to rise. But on the modern network, there is no longer any
scope for 'relief trains' to be hastily marshalled in the wake of
booked-out expresses, or for extra coaches to be coupled onto the end
of a train; every 'path' is booked months in advance, and trains have
to consist of whole numbers of multiple-units. There is no flexibility
left in the system - so when it bulges at the seams, it is the
passengers (euphemistically renamed 'customers') who have to squeeze.

As for freight... they couldn't possibly have that clogging up the
system! (So the lorries try to squeeze along residential roads to pander
to 'just-in-time' stocking systems, the buildings shake, and the
traffic gets worse and worse.)
Post by Louis Epstein
Post by Louis Epstein
A time-travel/alternate-history fiction project of mine has a great
deal to do with altered evolution of the American rail network
At what historical era?
This particular one branches off in 1892.
Hmm, what happened in 1892 that affected the railroads?

[snip]
--
Igenlode <***@nym.alias.net> Lurker Extraordinaire

careen (archaic): clean a ship's hull - career: travel wildly out of control
Louis Epstein
2004-08-12 17:08:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Igenlode Wordsmith
[snip]
Post by Louis Epstein
Traditionally, every goods yard used to have a loading gauge
somewhere by the side of the track, looking a little like a gallows
with a curved bar hanging from it - if the load on a wagon hit the
side of the post or fouled the bar at the top, then this was a
warning that it would not pass through tunnels and bridges on that
network.
No standard width for boxcars or passenger carriages?
Vans and coaches fit a standard tunnel-shaped profile (with the
exception of a certain famous tunnel on the Hastings route which is a
few inches narrower than anywhere else in the country, necessitating
specially-built stock for that one line!) but that doesn't help much
when you're loading up open trucks, or vehicles on well-wagons (i.e. a
JCB or even a narrow-gauge locomotive), or even track panels. Before
containerisation, a high proportion of all loads - save for perishables
(ventilated vans) and livestock (ditto, but not the same ones!) - was
transported in open trucks, in a vast variety of shapes and sizes, many
of them loose-coupled (i.e. no vacuum pipes - all braking was carried
out by the guard from the brake-van at the rear and from the engine
brake); American 'box-cars' never really existed here.
Hmm...in my alt-hist containerization is based on boxcar bodies
detachable from flatbed chassis (rather than on truck trailers).
Post by Igenlode Wordsmith
How they managed to get the giraffes to keep their heads down in circus
trains I don't know :-)
[snip]
Post by Louis Epstein
I think a system of modern wide-gauge main lines would be useful
even if expensive...can indulge in fiction at least!
Not really practical where there is any significant amount of civil
engineering involved, i.e. cuttings, embankments, bridges. (Though that
doesn't seem to stop them widening motorways, at a reputed cost of
millions of pounds per mile...)
One ought to do comparative cost studies and pay
attention to energy use!
Post by Igenlode Wordsmith
[snip]
Post by Louis Epstein
I think a train crossing the USA would be more cumbersome
than one from London to the Scottish Highlands,anyway.
One hopes it would not take all the students on at one stop!
I can't help feeling that there must be more than one wizarding school
in the whole of America - and probably more than just Beauxbatons,
Hogwarts and Durmstrang across the whole of Europe. I suppose the
American population is actually surprisingly low (only about four times
the total number in Britain alone, isn't it?, but even so the geography
of it would seem to make concentrating all the children in one school
very impractical. To send pupils from the West Coast to the East would
be like expecting Russian wizards to commute to London in order to
study!
But why is there only one,in Scotland,in all of Britain,with everyone
having to go to London to get there even if they live in Dunfermline?
Post by Igenlode Wordsmith
[snip]
Post by Louis Epstein
The new M-7 cars here in the NY area have smaller seating capacity
but that's a matter of disabled access,standing is always discouraged.
Not much choice, in the rush-hour; in the Underground, for example,
there's barely room to stand on the platforms, let alone sit down in the
trains! And the trains *can't* run at a higher density - they've
already shortened the blocks between signals to such a degree that you
can stand on the bridge and see three or four trains stacked up before
you get to the curve...
Subways there are plenty of standing passengers on,
but not on commuter trains.
Post by Igenlode Wordsmith
The trouble is, they 'rationalised' out all the spare capacity (extra
sidings, little-used alternative routes, old rolling stock) on the
grounds that it was inefficient and passenger numbers were bound to
keep falling in the long term. What has actually happened is that the
situation on the roads has reached choking-point, and rail traffic
started to rise. But on the modern network, there is no longer any
scope for 'relief trains' to be hastily marshalled in the wake of
booked-out expresses, or for extra coaches to be coupled onto the end
of a train; every 'path' is booked months in advance, and trains have
to consist of whole numbers of multiple-units. There is no flexibility
left in the system - so when it bulges at the seams, it is the
passengers (euphemistically renamed 'customers') who have to squeeze.
Here in the NYC area they are adding tracks and lengthening platforms
on the commuter lines.
Post by Igenlode Wordsmith
As for freight... they couldn't possibly have that clogging up the
system! (So the lorries try to squeeze along residential roads to
pander to 'just-in-time' stocking systems, the buildings shake, and the
traffic gets worse and worse.)
The Hudson Line is raising some bridges over it to enable double-stacked
freight cars and take some trucks off the roads.(It's shared by MTA Metro
North,Amtrak,and freight).
Post by Igenlode Wordsmith
Post by Louis Epstein
Post by Louis Epstein
A time-travel/alternate-history fiction project of mine has a great
deal to do with altered evolution of the American rail network
At what historical era?
This particular one branches off in 1892.
Hmm, what happened in 1892 that affected the railroads?
The death,at an early age,of a potential heir to a very important
railroad,whose position would be greatly magnified by the time-traveler
who saved his life.
Post by Igenlode Wordsmith
[snip]
[re sig:sorry,but I'm one of those who makes a career out of insisting
that it is careen that denotes going wildly out of control!]

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
David M. Sueme
2004-12-03 09:34:38 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:38:54 +0100, Igenlode Wordsmith
Post by Igenlode Wordsmith
American and British locomotives diverged almost from the start; the
early American engines had to be wood-burners and travel over unfenced
land, thus acquiring the vast spark-arresting smokestacks, cow-catchers,
and a bunch of other interesting locomotive stuff. Good post, only
problem is that you don't go into naval triple-expansion engines, for
instance...

Once you get started with this topic, how do you stop?

Dave

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p***@gmail.com
2014-06-24 11:17:10 UTC
Permalink
http://www.fkeys.ru/rust/161719275
Tim Bruening
2016-06-01 03:07:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Metaphorica
Although I loved the film, just one thing got me...
Did anyone notice how the Hogwarts Express has an authentic
steam-train exterior, but has the interior of a British Rail train?
You know, the blue patterned felt seats, and the cream sliding door?
And was that one of those red 'No Smoking' signs? On the Hogwarts
Express?
Just a minor gripe, in an otherwise brilliant film.
Why wouldn't wizards be concerned about the harmful effects of smoking? Wouldn't the MoM hear about the dangers of smoking via the Muggle government an Muggle media? (Surely the MoM would have people dedicated to monitoring the Muggle world).
r***@yahoo.co.uk
2016-06-01 11:48:18 UTC
Permalink
Tuesday, May 31, 2016 at 20:07, Tim Bruening wrote:
Re: A micro-gripe about Azkaban movie (at least in part)
Post by Tim Bruening
Post by Metaphorica
Although I loved the film, just one thing got me...
Did anyone notice how the Hogwarts Express has an authentic
steam-train exterior, but has the interior of a British Rail train?
You know, the blue patterned felt seats, and the cream sliding door?
And was that one of those red 'No Smoking' signs? On the Hogwarts
Express?
Just a minor gripe, in an otherwise brilliant film.
Why wouldn't wizards be concerned about the harmful effects of smoking?
Wouldn't the MoM hear about the dangers of smoking via the Muggle governm=
ent
Post by Tim Bruening
an Muggle media? (Surely the MoM would have people dedicated to monitori=
ng
Post by Tim Bruening
the Muggle world).
I think it=B4s more that as Hogwarts Express is "almost" entirely full of
children, a "No Smoking" sign is superfluous ?
Tim Bruening
2016-06-01 18:15:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@yahoo.co.uk
Re: A micro-gripe about Azkaban movie (at least in part)
Post by Tim Bruening
Post by Metaphorica
Although I loved the film, just one thing got me...
Did anyone notice how the Hogwarts Express has an authentic
steam-train exterior, but has the interior of a British Rail train?
You know, the blue patterned felt seats, and the cream sliding door?
And was that one of those red 'No Smoking' signs? On the Hogwarts
Express?
Just a minor gripe, in an otherwise brilliant film.
Why wouldn't wizards be concerned about the harmful effects of smoking?
Wouldn't the MoM hear about the dangers of smoking via the Muggle government
an Muggle media? (Surely the MoM would have people dedicated to monitoring
the Muggle world).
I think it´s more that as Hogwarts Express is "almost" entirely full of
children, a "No Smoking" sign is superfluous ?
Some of the children are as old as 17, so might have picked up the smoking habit, so would need "No Smoking" signs.
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